Death Penalty Opinions

[Kiara]

While I applaud the will to change things, and coming up with a suggestion that has some good points, I think it's overcomplicating things.

Like someone said earlier... "Why does it has to be so complicated?". I wonder that too.

The current system with recovery is actually pretty weird and complicated. "Death recovery". It really doesnt "fit" with Genesis, where most things have some type of thematic explanation to it. This new suggestion even more complicated, and less "explainable". Hm. I dont know. Why so complex?

Cant we just remove a part of the combat XP when you die. No recovery. Cut away some XP. And thats it. Like it used to be.

Then just balance this ONE variable so the penalty is enough to make you dont actively seek to die, but not that much so you'll quit playing and feel devastated if it happens. (In other words smaller than it is now).

But I also gotta ask:

What is the goal of changing death penalty? What is it we want to achieve by changing it?

If the goal is to get more PVP, I think death penalty isnt really the main problem. Actually I think it's pretty far down that list to be honest. But sure, maybe it can help a little. But keep it simple I say!

I would try something in the range of 5% flat loss on combat xp when dying.

Nothing complicated, and could work well for everyone. It's not that dramatical of a loss as a huge myth (still requires some effort to regain), and trivial for smaller players (as it perhaps should be).

Yeah something like that sounds reasonable. And if we realise it's too much/too little it's just one thing that can be adjusted fairly easily. Not a whole system that needs to be tweaked.

[gorboth]

I still prefer the old system to the new. A ten day recovery will drive away new players, hands down. If you die to a rat in Sparkle, that death is made up in minutes under the current system. If you have to wait ten days to recover while your stats are capped at utter novice, you won't log in after your first time dying. And I still believe that to be true through many of the lower levels.

You make an excellent point here. In which case, what might make sense is for the "time" required of the sentence scale to player level. Perhaps 4 hours is the base, and then you add one for each level above wanderer:

Code: Select all

    Adventurer       = 4 hours
    Adept            = 5 hours
    Great Adventurer = 6 hours
    Veteran          = 7 hours
    Expert           = 8 hours
    Rising Hero      = 9 hours
    Hero             = 10 hours
    Titan            = 11 hours
    Champion         = 12 hours
    Legend           = 13 hours
    Myth             = 14 hours

I changed the numbers here too. The 10 day minimum idea was simply to express the idea of time duration. It could also be 7-day minimum like above for a myth and 2 day for an Adventurer and below, on a sliding scale by level.

G.

[Kiara]

Current system:

• When you die, you lose 1/5 of your combat and general experience.
• A "snapshot" is taken of where you were just before death to use as a reference.
• Your brutality, which acts as a filter for how much exp you can get when killing based on the ratio of quest/nonquest exp, is artificially lowered.
• As you earn exp, now much faster thanks to the artificial lowering of your brute, your total exp is compared to that in the snapshot.
• As you travel back toward the snapshot's level, your brutality rises on a pre-set curve that rises faster the closer you get.
• If you die while in this recovery period, you lose 1/5 exp from where you are now, but the original snapshot is still used for recovery.

Proposed system:

• When you die, your stats will be reduced by 25% and capped there.
• You are assigned a sentence of 20 hours of play until this reduction will be removed.
• You can only pay off 2 hours of this sentence each day.
• If you die again while paying your sentence, 2% additional reduction is added to the cap, but the sentence is not extended.

Is that really so complex?

Well I argued that both systems are overly complex... and I think the new one IS more complex, and less thematic. Sure you added lots of lines to the first system so it seems more complex when you put it that way, but thats just a matter of presentation...

Personally I like things that can be explained in one sentence:

So for the current system:

"When you die you lose a part of your combat experience, however you also become considerably less brutal so you will regain your stats faster than normal after you have died, however your brute level will gradually rise as you recover, so it will be harder to recover the as you get closer to your old stat levels."

A long sentence, but... it works ok.

The proposed system:

"When you die you lose a part of your combat experience for 20 hours of gameplay, but only two hours of play each day counts towards this penalty, and should you happen to die again during this time you will only lose a much smaller portion of your combat experience, also during this time you will not appear to gain any experience at all, but you actually do in the background, and while you cant see this experience being gained, you will get back whatever you lost from death PLUS the experience you have gained during your penalty AFTER your have served your 20 hours".

No I am not trying to be "smart", I tried my very best to explain it in one sentence. I dare anyone to try it!

The really old system, and the system I would prefer (but with less XP loss):

"When you die you lose a portion of your combat experience".

Simple, and takes about 1 second for anyone, new or old player, to understand.

So yes. I do think the proposed idea is overly complicated, and theres more complications to come, like:

1. As you can NEVER lose stats again we introduce even more character growth for everyone. Good? I dont know. I doubt it? But I guess it'll make more people catch up to myth status quicker I guess. So if we want more people to hit the soft cap quicker I guess its good? But do we? Wont that just lead to more people competing for the myth XP areas? Lead to people demanding more such areas, more "myth" content? Etc? But maybe that is the way to go... I will always be against everyone being myths though... considering how much grinding is needed. But at least it'll be easier when you can never lose XP anymore. Wonder what those who did it "the old way" feels about that tough?

2. What happens to the whole idea of dying down to veteran status to rebalance your stats, or switch guilds and grow guild XP quick? That all goes away? Or do we need to keep this "volunteer death room"? Well, then you'll have to add that to the "one sentence explanation" above. I dare anyone to try to explain the different ways you can die to someone new in less than 5 sentences...

No really, I think it feels overly complicated and I cant see what good it would do at all. I still dont see what the goal with this change would be? Promote people playing? It promotes peoples idling I think.

The CURRENT system promotes people playing to recover. At least unless they stop playing from the harsh penalty, but those who dont will atleast actively try to regain what they lost. And constantly get feedback an enjoy numerous "fantas" in a row, and be excited by that. If we add a system where you dont even have to do ANYTHING to recover, why would you bother playing at reduced size when you could just idle while watching a movie or making dinner, and start grinding again when you're back to your old stats?

It promotes PVP? How? It doesnt add a reward for those who kill someone. All it does is remove the one thing that made people go through all the effort needed to kill someone, which was "to make them suffer". I dont think this is a great reward, no, but at least it was A reward. Now why kill someone? You dont get any reward from it except bragging rights and some EQ. Why bother with all the trouble? And the person you kill loses nothing. Just temporary XP loss, that they dont need to do anything at all to regain. I think the mages not wanting to kill me until death penalty is back is good proof of this... The new way will just make people look for other things to punish their enemies with. I turned to revealing secrets and stealing since I CANT kill big mage myths. (Because of guild imbalances and player size differences). The mages turned to weapon breaking and keeping "my" EQ from me, since killing me is pretty useless. (Because of the no death penalty experiment). And they'e right. I wouldn't care the slightest as it is now. Nor would I care with the proposed system. All I need to do is idle a bit while working iRL. I'd be more upset about the lost EQ to be honest. Even a small XP loss would at least make me a little more cautious...

No, PVP would imho be helped by a _small_ sting for the loser, and a small, but nice, _reward_ for the winner. Then you would actually have a reason to PVP, if you gained something by killing your enemy, but there would still be something to lose too, if you got killed. PVP would also benefit greatly, no matter the death system, by balanced guilds, by balanced PVP abilities and by a more equally sized player base. Thats way more important I think. No matter the penalty or lack of it, losing an unfair and imbalanced battle will still suck.

I cant see how this change would do anything good for PVP. On the contrary.

Soooo... thats what I think.

Sorry to sound so negative. But well... I dont really like this new idea and you did ask for opinions... Don't take it too hard. I think it's great you put this new idea up for debate. You guys upstairs still decide which opinions to listen to though. Here's a negative one. Listen, and think again, or just decide me and the other skeptics are probably wrong, and go for the proposed change. If that's what your gut tells you. My gut says no though.

[Zar]

Damn, people... Why you are so negative?
No matter what happens, all you do is criticize.

Old system: *whine* too hard to come back
No death penalty: *whine* no penalty for bad RP
Any new system (except the only one you have in mind): *whine* it won't ever work... *thousand reasons*

This is more tiresome than dying in any system...

[Zar]

Well I argued that both systems are overly complex... and I think the new one IS more complex, and less thematic. Sure you added lots of lines to the first system so it seems more complex when you put it that way, but thats just a matter of presentation...

Both systems are simple... at least in my eyes.

1. As you can NEVER lose stats again we introduce even more character growth for everyone. Good? I dont know. I doubt it? But I guess it'll make more people catch up to myth status quicker I guess. So if we want more people to hit the soft cap quicker I guess its good? But do we? Wont that just lead to more people competing for the myth XP areas? Lead to people demanding more such areas, more "myth" content? Etc? But maybe that is the way to go... I will always be against everyone being myths though... considering how much grinding is needed. But at least it'll be easier when you can never lose XP anymore. Wonder what those who did it "the old way" feels about that tough?

Actually I think it is very good point... I mean good point for this system.
We are talking about gap between mortal sizes. There are two solutions:
- hard core limit
- everyone is a myth in decent amount of time

First one was purposed trillion of times but was rejected because it will drive everyone above limit to find something else to play. So lets go for the second one?

2. What happens to the whole idea of dying down to veteran status to rebalance your stats, or switch guilds and grow guild XP quick? That all goes away? Or do we need to keep this "volunteer death room"? Well, then you'll have to add that to the "one sentence explanation" above. I dare anyone to try to explain the different ways you can die to someone new in less than 5 sentences...

In most muds I know there is a feature: reset stats/skills/etc.
So why not introduce something like that? It was always strange to me why if I want to change my stats I need to die?
Harvesting guild exp as express train is another issue that must be solved and proposed system does that.

The CURRENT system promotes people playing to recover. At least unless they stop playing from the harsh penalty, but those who don't will at least actively try to regain what they lost. And constantly get feedback an enjoy numerous "fantas" in a row, and be excited by that. If we add a system where you don't even have to do ANYTHING to recover, why would you bother playing at reduced size when you could just idle while watching a movie or making dinner, and start grinding again when you're back to your old stats?

First of all you still can exp. With less efficiency, but hey... don't die
Second AT LAST you have incentive to look on quest orbs and think of what you can do even without fighting: Role-playing? Socializing? Herbing? Equipment gathering for others? Enjoying terrific scenes all over Genesis?

All I need to do is idle a bit while working iRL.

Actually I think that this is good thing. I'd love to ask more people be online even idle.
Mud with 90 people on "who" list is more attractive than mud with 10. This is one of important promotional tools

[Zar]

Another small polishing:
I think players below beginner-wanderer should be free of penalty.
They are new and Genesis is not very friendly and it is easy to die while exploring for young players.

Also if you are still on Newbie island and die there... Probably you will quit and won't wait even 1 hour to recover.

[Zhar]

Another small polishing:
I think players below beginner-wanderer should be free of penalty.
They are new and Genesis is not very friendly and it is easy to die while exploring for young players.

Also if you are still on Newbie island and die there... Probably you will quit and won't wait even 1 hour to recover.

I believe that anyone below adept mortal level can recover death on their own in a matter of a couple of hours at the most even in the old system. It's not that hard, especially if someone bigger takes you along for the ride. Which brings another idea to my mind, one that could enhance the interaction. How about you can't recover death (or gain combat experience at all) past hero level unless you're a part of the team?

[Kiara]

Zar: The "bring everyone up to myth quicker" idea has also been suggested a trillion times. Which usually causes an outrage amongst current myths who worked harder for it. I am not saying it's wrong though. Thats why I brought it up. Is it something we want? Because they proposed death system will definitely make people bigger. Unless the volunteer death thing in Sparkle is kept.

That we dont have a "rebalance stats" ability / spell / item I have always found as weird. I agree with you there. I dont like they current die down to veteran system, BUT its the only one we have. Which is why I brought it up. If we redo death, it's another thing that needs to be solved first. Volunteer deaths is also really the only thing that keeps more people from reaching the higher levels of myth, and something many people enjoy doing. Die down, regrind up quick with another race/guild, etc. So we also remove one fun thing to do for a portion of our players. So even if we had some other system for rebalancing stats instead, that needs to be considered as well.

As for guild XP. Well, again, also why I brought it up is because its another thing that will be solved. With the proposed new death people would become much more skeptical about changing guilds, since getting guild XP in the new guild will be extremely hard, especially if you're a myth. Which many are. I earlier suggested that guild XP should work independently of brute and size, so you dont have to die down to veteran to accumulate it. But that idea was met with as much negativity as this new death one... So I dont know... but it definitely needs to be considered.

The new death WILL make players bigger, it WILL make it impossible to rebalance your stats, and it WILL make it much harder to gain guild XP when you switch guilds. To the point that many might not even do it at all. Ever.

Those are three big issues that needs to be figured out I think. If the proposed system should have a chance of success.

As for getting players to RP more, quest more, etc. Well, I understand how you think and yes it does sound logical. So does "idling players is better than no players", since it makes it seem like there's more players awake. But I think both of these are just illusions. I think if you want people to RP more you need to make it interesting for people who enjoy RP to RP. If you want people to quest more, you need to get players who enjoy our current quests, or have more enjoyable quests. If you want more players in the game, provide a better and more fun game where people want to play. Not just idle.

I do not thinking removing one thing (grinding) will make players take part in other things that they have already chosen not to participate much in. If you enjoy grinding, and watching your stats grow, which undoubtably a large portion our players do, I actually dont think these same players will turn into questers or RP'ers during these 20 hours. I think they will continue grinding, or idle. But sure, it's possible it might work like you say too in some cases. And thats one of the positive sides to this proposed new death. I think the problems outweigh the positive sides though.

Anyway, no matter what you decide you will have a group of people who wont be happy.

If the new death is introduced, me a some people will grumble, you and some others will like it. If we keep the old ones, some will like it, others wont. If we have no penalty some will like it, other will not.

No way to please everyone.

I have yet to understand exactly what this change is supposed to achieve though. And thats why I am mainly so skeptical. WHY are we changing this? Gorboth said the thing that sparked all of this was Logg's recent death and him leaving the game. And people leaving the game when they die isn't good. Which is true. Although I think this is the wrong end of things. Logg did not leave because he _died_. He left because HOW he died. I think it seems like most people who take a break after dying dont do it when they die in PVE, they do it when they die in PVP, and the problem imho isn't really the death penalty, but how PVP works, or doesn't work.

But sure, maybe this will keep some people from not taking a break when they die no matter how they die... but I think it introduces a whole lot of other problems though, which I am not sure are better... and I dont think it does anything good for PVP. It may just as well make people PVP even less instead. So I am skeptical...

[Makfly]

The argument that no death penalty is bad for roleplaying is a connection I simply do not believe exist. I would really like to see some evidence, even anecdotal evidence, on this having any foundation in reality.

Also pointing to MMOs and saying their setup is the reason why there is no roleplaying in them is false. There are roleplayers in World of Warcraft, many of them much more dedicated than what is found in even the most "elite positions" in Genesis. The amount of roleplayers in WoW is of course dwarfed by the grinders and "loot-whores", but that is honestly the same thing in Genesis, even if the percentages may differ some.
One of the advantages Genesis has in terms of fostering roleplaying is that the players have a much, much bigger impact on the world, than you do as a player in most MMOs. The roleplayers in WoW and EQ for instance had to do alot of meta-game coordination to ensure great roleplaying sessions, where as in Genesis it does not.
That is something we should be sure to point out when trying to promote Genesis.

Now there are plenty of reasons why having no death penalty besides the sting to your pride and the lost equipment, herbs, potions, coins may be a bad idea, but the argument that its bad for roleplaying, I do not believe.


In general though I still think, as I've written before, that to truly innovate in Genesis, the Wizards needs to not listen to the current community (me included), as there are so much entrenchment, conservatism and vested interests, that any new idea that might be good for the future of the game is shot down in flames by the present.

[Amorana]

The argument that no death penalty is bad for roleplaying is a connection I simply do not believe exist. I would really like to see some evidence, even anecdotal evidence, on this having any foundation in reality.

Also pointing to MMOs and saying their setup is the reason why there is no roleplaying in them is false. There are roleplayers in World of Warcraft, many of them much more dedicated than what is found in even the most "elite positions" in Genesis. The amount of roleplayers in WoW is of course dwarfed by the grinders and "loot-whores", but that is honestly the same thing in Genesis, even if the percentages may differ some.
One of the advantages Genesis has in terms of fostering roleplaying is that the players have a much, much bigger impact on the world, than you do as a player in most MMOs. The roleplayers in WoW and EQ for instance had to do alot of meta-game coordination to ensure great roleplaying sessions, where as in Genesis it does not.
That is something we should be sure to point out when trying to promote Genesis.

Now there are plenty of reasons why having no death penalty besides the sting to your pride and the lost equipment, herbs, potions, coins may be a bad idea, but the argument that its bad for roleplaying, I do not believe.


In general though I still think, as I've written before, that to truly innovate in Genesis, the Wizards needs to not listen to the current community (me included), as there are so much entrenchment, conservatism and vested interests, that any new idea that might be good for the future of the game is shot down in flames by the present.

I agree with all of the above. However, I would add that what should be considered should also be separate from what the wizards themselves think is best. We need to stop thinking (self included and my love for rp) that we can shape how people play and start thinking of what will make Genesis sustainable / keep players in a game that for a myriad of reasons (still highly in development and rebalancing, syntactical issues, difficult to solve quests, and a harsher than any game put out today death penalty, among others) is less attractive than others.

I love what you do for the game Gorboth, and I generally support most of it. However with this I am really afraid you are going to cut off your own nose in spite of your face. Forced recovery times, no matter how they are crafted, are going to lead to idle players - or to a brute penalty that sucks or is easily abused for growth (as previously noted). I am afraid that you are too focused on how you WANT people to play during death recovery to recognize how people will ACTUALLY play.