Deletions

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Mim
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Re: Deletions

Post by Mim » 25 Jun 2017 14:02

Draugor wrote:I believe the main thing is controlling info on wizards alts, alltho wizards tell their friends and they then tell their friends etc etc, keeping an alt secret is VERY hard on genesis what with wizards beeing able to watch the playerfile wich has the alts listed, wich is imo why deletion is alittle to much for this stuff.
Are there really wizards doing this, and revealing what they discovered?
How low can you sink?
As an explorer, you have done enough to retire.

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Deletions

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 25 Jun 2017 14:16

Think when AOP posts about a deletion, they should go ahead and say who and why.

Just from reading this thread seems Ody Greneth and Emraht got the chop?
Thats sad for Vingaard.
Didnt really know those guys in game but chatting on discord they were cool guys. Certainly no negative poisonous vibes comming from any of them... Ever.

And I liked Emraht, found him to be a cool guy and great roleplayer. Only knew him in game, but he was a stand up guy there, enjoyed every interaction with him.

So im not reading this thinking about time.. More like it is a storm in a teacup over some chinese whispers and he said she said.

ps I saw people posting the link to wall of shame on discord.
And saw Greneth doing everything he could to remove it fast every time.

So yeah, while I can see the reasoning of an AoP wanting to take a stand.
Seems like deleting people with no prior warning is over the top.

Ethuscuel summed it up nicely.
If you seperate ur characters correctly and dont tell anyone.
Then it would take cheating on an arch wizard scale to spoil that for u.

Are any of them going to get an honorary npc created in the realms?
Like Sonic in bree. I heard he was deleted because of modifying player files on the server.
Now that is cheating...
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Cherek
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Re: Deletions

Post by Cherek » 25 Jun 2017 16:32

Iceman wrote: Take a moment to reflect. You said yourself we hit a dangerous low in the past. Before this happened, AoP was heavy handed on deletion (which is implied)... so now that a good player base returns... we go to the old ways again? Did they work? It doesn't appear so, and I'm using the evidence you gave me in this line of debate already. I don't know the whole story- not even close. However, I do know that the last two notes on the common board. You're making it hard to talk to people out of character, and giving the AOP team some serious power that makes me want to barf. For instance: I'm making an alt by the name of Icemann. LET IT BE KNOWN. Everyone who now shares the link to this forum (by what I've heard as far as rules) gets deleted.
I'd just like to comment on this, and my time as AoP, and some more about the history. The year was 2014 (I think) when Gorboth asked me to become AoP. At the time I had just returned to being a (semi) active wizard after a looong break from the wizard world. As Gorboth said, before I became AoP he held the positions of Keeper, AoD and AoP, and both wizard numbers and player numbers were at an all time low, and Gorboth hired me to take some of the workload from him. I quickly hired Mirandus and Varian (and later Nerull) to help me out, and for I think two years we had a team that swiftly replied and dealt with most issues, both when players needed help, and when they broke the rules. Then Mirandus took over with his team. So for the last years we HAVE had the workforce and ability to deal with issues in a timely manner. And we did. And this is what most of you "new generation players" have known.

What Gorboth talked about in his post was the time before this, when you could login and see under 10 players awake, and the wizard world consisted of a handful admins who tried to keep the game running. During this time many rules also changed from "harsh" to "nice", and since I wasn't a wizard then I did not know why, so I can't comment on that, but Gorboth explained a lot of it in his earlier post in this thread.

So if we go back 10 or more years we had much harsher rules than we have today, especially when it came to out of game communication, which even said you could not even decide to team up outside the game. So a lot of people would decide to team up iRL, or on ICQ (The Skype of the time), but then still send each other a mail in-game, just so they would not get punished for out of game communication. Oh and quest solutions were not allowed. And all sorts of things. The rules in general were much harsher, and where then made more forgiving. I inherited the "nice" rules, and the only rule I changed was some minor adjustments to botting rules. Everything else remained as it was, and me and my team tried to make sure players followed the rules as written, and I think we did a good job at that. Now Mirandus is AoP, and Gorboth is back again after a break from Genesis (that we all need sometimes), so it's up to them how to move forward, and to decide if rules need adjustments, based on Genesis 2017. Which is much different from Genesis 2010. Or even Genesis 2014 when I became AoP. Things have changed quickly lately with way more players and lots of thing going on in and outside the game.

Are we moving towards harsher rules again? I don't know. I am no longer the AoP, and I am no longer in the Admin. However, so far ONE rule has changed, or rather a part of a rule regarding out of game communication. We're nowhere near the old rules, but for you "new" players this obviously seems extremely harsh, but put into perspective in Genesis history, it's not. When we had the most strict rules of all time Genesis thrived with peaks at 130 players, and probably more if the game hardware could have supported it. So we can't say that nicer rules makes a more successful game. But we can't really say the opposite either, since there are so many variables that determines if players enjoy Genesis it's hard to know if the rules affect player numbers at all. Maybe we would have had even more players back in the days with nicer rules? Or the opposite? Who knows. In the end it's up the the current Admin/AoP to make up rules that they believe in, and that will of course change depending on who is in charge, and also what players do, and which year it is. A lot of things has happened in the world between 1997 and 2017, and so also in Genesis. Rules changes isn't uncommon at all historically. Tons of rules have changed in the last 20 years.

This rule change seems to have divided people, just as most rule changes have in the past. Some think it's crazy to try to control what people say outside the game. Other believe the rule is good but the punishment too hard, and some feel revealing alts is the lowest thing you can do and you deserve whatever you get. I can understand all sides.

Anyway, just wanted to provide some history about Genesis rules, and my time as AoP.

Ethuscuel
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Re: Deletions

Post by Ethuscuel » 25 Jun 2017 18:01

Cherek wrote: This rule change seems to have divided people, just as most rule changes have in the past. Some think it's crazy to try to control what people say outside the game. Other believe the rule is good but the punishment too hard, and some feel revealing alts is the lowest thing you can do and you deserve whatever you get. I can understand all sides.
Again, no skin in the game here --> no alts...buuuuut...

I keep coming back to this: doesn't revealing of alts start with the people owning the alts?
Would it make more sense to create a rule that places concrete restrictions on revealing whom YOUR alts are?
Would that place the onus squarely upon the shoulders of the people most responsible for alt information...the same people with the most to lose from that information spreading?
Would that give the wizards 'one throat to choke' instead of the perceived injustice of punishing the 49th person that talked about it while 48 others escape the guillotine?

I'm guessing this rule was created to 'protect' people that feel they have something to lose from having their alts revealed...even while they're telling someone who their alts are.
Am I the only person that finds the above sentence decidedly odd?

If that doesn't make any sense just blame it on Mage-logic.

Thalric
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Re: Deletions

Post by Thalric » 25 Jun 2017 18:06

Just because you don't tell anyone who your seconds are, doesn't mean that some people won't guess it.

Times of playing, playing style, level of RP, grammar... all these things can be fit together if you are paying enough attention.

So no, it shouldn't be your own fault if your seconds are reveiled or not.

Even if you did trust someone and told them, they ought to know it to be a matter of trust and secrecy and therefore not broken.

Kvator
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Re: Deletions

Post by Kvator » 25 Jun 2017 18:37

Thalric wrote:Just because you don't tell anyone who your seconds are, doesn't mean that some people won't guess it.

Times of playing, playing style, level of RP, grammar... all these things can be fit together if you are paying enough attention.

So no, it shouldn't be your own fault if your seconds are reveiled or not.

Even if you did trust someone and told them, they ought to know it to be a matter of trust and secrecy and therefore not broken.

If you made it so easy to guess then it's ur fault imho :D

Ethuscuel
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Re: Deletions

Post by Ethuscuel » 25 Jun 2017 19:09

Thalric wrote:Just because you don't tell anyone who your seconds are, doesn't mean that some people won't guess it.

Times of playing, playing style, level of RP, grammar... all these things can be fit together if you are paying enough attention.

So no, it shouldn't be your own fault if your seconds are reveiled or not.
I couldn't possibly agree more with the first two sentences. Regarding the third - can alts really be 'revealed' without the
person owning the alt confirming that it's them? Isn't is just rumor until then? Is it difficult to say "Nope, that's not me."?
Is deletion the correct punishment for talking about a rumor?
Thalric wrote:Even if you did trust someone and told them, they ought to know it to be a matter of trust and secrecy and therefore not broken.
If you want something kept secret, would it make more sense to keep it secret? If you want to punish people for sharing secrets does
it make more sense to punish the group of people talking about the secret - which isn't a secret anymore - or the person that first spilled
the beans? Maybe both?
If we're going to have a rule that certain information isn't to be shared - would it make more sense to regulate it downstream where the
problem has become HUGE, or upstream where the problem is very small or hasn't even started yet?

I'm asking lots of questions because I don't know the answer(s). I'm not attacking you, I'm just confused and I'd like to see this play out.

This situation reminds me a lot of the 'Herb Garden Germination' episode of Big Bang Theory. Quite frankly, I'm pretty uncomfortable with
the idea that the correct answer is deleting folks that spread rumors.

Fairlight
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Re: Deletions

Post by Fairlight » 25 Jun 2017 20:27

I'm Spartacus!

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Tarax the Terrible
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Re: Deletions

Post by Tarax the Terrible » 26 Jun 2017 00:13

Crazy idea..

When a player lists a second in their profile.
Share the quests completed among all characters.

And use that relationships thing to say newbieY is "a distant descendant of Tarax"
If you want ultra secrecy don't link them in profile.
If you want the benefit of shared qexp well your out in the open.

Would help discourage people grief thiefing as much.
Spying in guilds etc.

I would have no problem having a second known, cus I plan to play the characters separately. Knowing I had a main in an opposing guild could have stigma attached. But would probably be a relief for the guild leaders to know. And then judge who can separate their characters ok.
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Draugor
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Re: Deletions

Post by Draugor » 26 Jun 2017 05:28

Tarax the Terrible wrote:Crazy idea..

When a player lists a second in their profile.
Share the quests completed among all characters.

And use that relationships thing to say newbieY is "a distant descendant of Tarax"
If you want ultra secrecy don't link them in profile.
If you want the benefit of shared qexp well your out in the open.

Would help discourage people grief thiefing as much.
Spying in guilds etc.

I would have no problem having a second known, cus I plan to play the characters separately. Knowing I had a main in an opposing guild could have stigma attached. But would probably be a relief for the guild leaders to know. And then judge who can separate their characters ok.
The share quexp has been mentioned before, think the reason is that they dont want a million alts, however, the idea is something I'd LOVE since questing is a plague on the game.

And the problem with char separation is that ALOT of the guildleaders cant separate their chars properly, denying entry based on who their main is and other dumb stuff, some guilds are actually very good at not doing that crap tho. From what I remember the morgul mages are very good at differentiating alts, they ofc know who it is, but as long as you yourself can keep em apart? No harm no foul.

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