Global layman guild review

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Zugzug
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Zugzug » 04 Aug 2019 12:01

I will ask the same question again - how does this proposed change affect the combination magical guilds (occ+layman or racial+occ+layman)?

I am going on a limb here, but I am guessing that at least some of those guilds were explicitly designed around extracting every possible drop of potential available caid out of every bucket available to them.

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 12:18

Zugzug wrote:I will ask the same question again - how does this proposed change affect the combination magical guilds (occ+layman or racial+occ+layman)?

I am going on a limb here, but I am guessing that at least some of those guilds were explicitly designed around extracting every possible drop of potential available caid out of every bucket available to them.
A guild that is built as an occ+lay has less maximum potential combat aid than the combination of the maximum possible caid for an occupational and caid for a layman guild combined. They get reduced caid for exactly the reason you outlined... the ability to optimise all aid in to one bucket is an advantage, so they are given less to play with.

Having said that, following my reflections on layman guilds combined guilds are on my list to review to make sure they aren't double dipping with 'white damage' caid benefits. But that is on the cards for later. Right now I am reviewing layman guilds.

Tarlok
Apprentice
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Joined: 27 Aug 2018 12:33

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Tarlok » 04 Aug 2019 13:20

Pure melee layman guilds need a big boost. When compared with supposedly the best layman melee, missing a battack every 26 seconds is pretty pathetic compared to the haste one could get from their layman caster guild. Worshippers/warlocks also seem to get avoidance of a similar level as pirates. On top of being better than the best offensive or defensive layman melee guilds, they get a ton of utility, heal, rest, scry, see invis, etc. its so good it completely ruins the melee laymans, and probably the weaker caster laymans. Those poor individuals who join the melee laymans must be doing it for thematics, which is great but poorly rewarded. I suppose nerfing the best guilds is the easiest thing to do to bring balance, but some middle ground of bringing up the terrible laymans would be appreciated.

Kvator
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Kvator » 04 Aug 2019 15:30

Arman wrote:
Kvator wrote:
Arman wrote: That stuff is thematics...
Not including 'thematics' (strict align restrictions, allowed races etc) in balance 'big picture' is a fundamental mistake in these calculations imho. Such limits / bonuses impact actual gameplay heavily.

And remove align btw :P
Using thematics/roleplay as a justification for exceptional powers doesn't fly anymore. And there is enough flexibility in the system to allow for creative solutions outside of the standard caid cap, as long as appropriate disadvantages are incorporated in to it to balance it out.
I believe that you are mentioning MM/vamps etc here. Afaik they never got any issue with killing any grindzone (hell evil guilds tend to kill...sorry 'train' their own mobs every now and then). So I don't buy ur analogy here.

On the good side there are guilds that insta punish you if you kill wrong mob (oots, knights, i bet rangers, monks to some extend).
Being limited to use ur caid on 1/2 game content should be taken into consideration and it should be boosted for the other half of the game.

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Arman
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Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Arman » 04 Aug 2019 15:58

Kvator wrote:
Arman wrote:
Kvator wrote: Not including 'thematics' (strict align restrictions, allowed races etc) in balance 'big picture' is a fundamental mistake in these calculations imho. Such limits / bonuses impact actual gameplay heavily.

And remove align btw :P
Using thematics/roleplay as a justification for exceptional powers doesn't fly anymore. And there is enough flexibility in the system to allow for creative solutions outside of the standard caid cap, as long as appropriate disadvantages are incorporated in to it to balance it out.
I believe that you are mentioning MM/vamps etc here. Afaik they never got any issue with killing any grindzone (hell evil guilds tend to kill...sorry 'train' their own mobs every now and then). So I don't buy ur analogy here.
I am not trying to convince you. I am telling you how it is.

Kvator
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Joined: 02 Sep 2010 21:25

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Kvator » 04 Aug 2019 16:28

Arman wrote: I am not trying to convince you. I am telling you how it is.
I know how it is and that's why - at the very beginning - I stated that imho it's a mistake. I tried to convince you. I failed. Happens.

Saimon
Wanderer
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Joined: 26 Jul 2017 23:08

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Saimon » 04 Aug 2019 22:51

First of all thank you Arman for this topic. Yes, layman guilds needed a balance review for a quite long time.

But before I start to write about specific guild I would like to return to some roots, some of player mentioned already. What are layman guilds for? Or what should they be for? What is their place in global picture of Genesis?
As other said in my opinion layman guild should fulfill the picture of the char you are creating. If you want to be a Mercenary who will join AA to want to plunder Gondorian villages, or maybe you came from one of such village and joined Mercs and Militia to protect your home? Or you can be a Minotaur from Mithas who want the glory of winner of an Arena and join Gladiators? Of course you can be Knight and worhiper of Kiri-Jolith or a stupid Ogre that raised on the Earthsea Archipelago and want to follow Segoy path and layman monk. I can multiple such a combinations, but in all these cases layman branch finish the picture, add the last taste.

So now lets look at the guild we have. Formally we have 3 groups of lay guilds: Magic,Ranger&Thief and Melee. I would say we have 4 groups: these three + useless. But it was already told what is wrong with lay Monks, Tricksters and Minstrels, and it seems sooner or later it will be corrected.

So lets look at rest of guilds.
And I would like to start with melee guilds. In my opinion they all should give the same caid. Of course it should be divided differently between offensives and defensive abilities and specials. Pirates should better tank than Militia and Minotaurs and Blademasters should have much more powerful offensive spec than AA/Militia/Templars. So task for you Arman to verify and tune up the differences. If Shieldbearers has the same total caid as Templars? If BM has equal caid as Minotaurs (in my opinion they are quite well balanced)? But if AA is close to Militia in terms of caid and balance I have doubts. I know except basic caid in specials there are other skills and abilities. But do they all have impact on total caid? Maybe they should be reflected in tax (BM should have lower tax than Minotaurs)

Regarding magic guilds, you Arman and other told a lot. In my opinion both Warlocks and Worshipers should be revised in terms of balance. It cannot be I as stiupid ogre have the same benefits from the guild as elf merc. We both in fact use the same maintained spells 90% of time. The only difference is usage of some "at once spells". Ogre can cast 3-4 such spells and is out of mana (for 2-3 min). while elf can probably cast 10-15 spells. But these spells are used rarely.
A side note: Sorry but I cannot imagine huge, stupid ogre who is warlock that cast a shield spell.

Conclusion:
We do not have problem with magic lay guilds, we have problem only with Warlock/Elemental guilds. OotS and Valars seems to be quite balanced, especially when you take into account align restrictions.

Ranger&Thief guilds:
Here we have in fact only Thief guild. Archers are waiting for reopen (by the way Arman, are there any chance to see it open in any near future). And we all know you plan some global changes to the sneak&hide + steal skills. So until these global changes will be implemented it is without sense to talk about thieves.

Just my 2 cc

Syrk
Rising Hero
Posts: 362
Joined: 06 Jul 2011 22:24

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Syrk » 04 Aug 2019 23:22

We have been patted on our heads enough here, just nerf already.

Amberlee
Myth
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Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Amberlee » 06 Aug 2019 15:14

So.. Is this a good time to ask for Minstrel recode?
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

Draugor
Myth
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Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Global layman guild review

Post by Draugor » 06 Aug 2019 15:39

Oof, and that was not a small bloody nerf, we're getting some decent fighting laymans that arent restricted in every way possible now?

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