Weaponmasters, again.

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nils
Rising Hero
Posts: 308
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Weaponmasters, again.

Post by nils » 24 Sep 2019 17:40

The most uttered complaint I've heard over the years is "Blademasters should have been turned into Weaponmasters".

Now we all know the admin's position on this:
* It's not part of the vision.
* It belongs to a domain/wizard
* Vanilla guilds are just that - vanilla, and bring little to flavour Genesis.
* Probably a couple more.


So, we all know the wizard's arguments and complaints, and I'm pretty sure I got most of the pros of turning Blademasters into Weaponmasters.

I haven't heard one player say Weaponmasters are a bad idea, can this be interpreted as everyone wants it?
So, if you are a player and oppose the idea of Weaponmasters, could you please give your two cents?
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Draugor
Myth
Posts: 1785
Joined: 06 Mar 2012 00:14

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Draugor » 25 Sep 2019 05:35

nils wrote:
24 Sep 2019 17:40
The most uttered complaint I've heard over the years is "Blademasters should have been turned into Weaponmasters".

Now we all know the admin's position on this:
* It's not part of the vision.
* It belongs to a domain/wizard
* Vanilla guilds are just that - vanilla, and bring little to flavour Genesis.
* Probably a couple more.


So, we all know the wizard's arguments and complaints, and I'm pretty sure I got most of the pros of turning Blademasters into Weaponmasters.

I haven't heard one player say Weaponmasters are a bad idea, can this be interpreted as everyone wants it?
So, if you are a player and oppose the idea of Weaponmasters, could you please give your two cents?
It's almost as if you think the admin listens enough to players to make it if enough players shout about it xD

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nils
Rising Hero
Posts: 308
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by nils » 25 Sep 2019 10:59

Draugor wrote:
25 Sep 2019 05:35
It's almost as if you think the admin listens enough to players to make it if enough players shout about it xD
Well, for better or worse they did listen to the (potential new) players about foreversaving items. Perhaps the deafening silence in this thread has the same effect.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

Drazson
Rising Hero
Posts: 306
Joined: 24 Jan 2016 21:27

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Drazson » 25 Sep 2019 11:15

Heil!

It would probably make more sense for what you're talking about to be a merc lay branch. BMs actually have a theme, some (little afaik, but still there) lore etc. It wouldn't change too much though, maybe some people would change to weaponmasters to be stronger than before but it doesn't sound like something that adds to the game.

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Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 866
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Zhar » 25 Sep 2019 13:47

There are quite a few issues with turning Blademasters into Weaponmasters:

1. It would require rewriting of all the special hit descriptions and help files for all the different kinds of weapons (and that's a lot of work).
2. It would disrupt the current guild relations. Some guilds are considered good because they allow you to join the BM, which make them more powerful. The guilds that don't have access to BM need to look for layman options elsewhere, increasing diversity.
3. It might disrupt the overall balance.

Just from the top of my head.

Also, it would be super boring. Might just as well create a layman branch of Glads that gives you charge but no weapon trainings. Would work almost the same, except then probably no one would ever join OCC Glads...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Raelle
Adept
Posts: 136
Joined: 18 Jul 2017 19:31

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Raelle » 25 Sep 2019 19:04

I'd love to see more creative fighter laymans but weaponmasters sounds like the most boring guild in the world.
sell me on it?

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Arman
Wizard
Posts: 605
Joined: 22 Sep 2014 13:15

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Arman » 26 Sep 2019 05:04

It would honestly be easier to code a new guild.

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nils
Rising Hero
Posts: 308
Joined: 22 Jul 2016 17:13

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by nils » 26 Sep 2019 13:10

Zhar wrote:
25 Sep 2019 13:47
There are quite a few issues with turning Blademasters into Weaponmasters:

1. It would require rewriting of all the special hit descriptions and help files for all the different kinds of weapons (and that's a lot of work).
2. It would disrupt the current guild relations. Some guilds are considered good because they allow you to join the BM, which make them more powerful. The guilds that don't have access to BM need to look for layman options elsewhere, increasing diversity.
3. It might disrupt the overall balance.

Just from the top of my head.

Also, it would be super boring. Might just as well create a layman branch of Glads that gives you charge but no weapon trainings. Would work almost the same, except then probably no one would ever join OCC Glads...
1. I'll do it. Descs, helpfiles, whatever. Easy. Can't do code, though.
2. True, but unfair.
3. Genesis is not balanced.

Raelle wrote:
25 Sep 2019 19:04
I'd love to see more creative fighter laymans but weaponmasters sounds like the most boring guild in the world.
sell me on it?
I will. Read on.
Arman wrote:
26 Sep 2019 05:04
It would honestly be easier to code a new guild.

The problem is choice. We play this game for various reasons. Some value roleplay, some value power and growth, some go for options that do the most damage, others go for options that are able to absorb the most damage, some prefer magic, others don't.

My character, Nils, is a soldier in the Army of Angmar. He is also a part of a guild called Warlocks, but that's only because of the abilities the guild offers. Nils doesn't care about magic or being a Warlock. If Nils had a choice, once he no longer needs the defensives offered from the Warlocks, he would want to join whatever guild offered the most offensive power. Because he cannot be a blademaster the only option is becoming a cow. Nils is not a cow. Nor does he believe in Krynn.

Let's look at another example, but reverse.

X likes the versatility the Mercenary guild offers, but plays a Templar Knight in service of Thakisis and the Priesthood. Not only can he be part of a "vanilla occupational", he can even hide the title and play just what he is - a templar knight. This is also true for the Assassins, but add some secrecy and surreptitious duties - posing as a Templar is a good "cover".

It boils down to choice. Having a layman that simply offers nothing else but a special attack and the ability to hide your title is as mentioned above - a layman mercenary or gladiator-like option that I think should be an option available to all, not just sword users.

So Raelle, yes - it's boring. But if you only wish to identify as your occupational guild, boring is perfect. Blademasters are boring through and through, and we are many who want in on it.

Arman, I know for a fact that this is possible within a short time frame due to the fact that I've been a Weaponmaster. But if you seriously think making a vanilla guild that simply offers the most possible offensive caid is easier than writing descs - please delegate? Preferably outside Krynn.
Lesser guilds deserve their suffering, you feel unjustly nerfed and want to be restored to your rightful glory... huh. I guess you're Genesis Hitler then. It feels so sweet to say this.. Fuck you, Hitler.
-Drazson, 21.07.2019

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Zhar
Wizard
Posts: 866
Joined: 17 Apr 2012 12:09

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Zhar » 26 Sep 2019 14:22

Well, to give a bit of a counter to your argument. I don't think you should mention Mercenaries in this context. Mercs have been pretty much designed to be this malleable and super flexible guild that lets you fully embrace and roleplay your layman option (and now you can even do a full Khalakhor RP by joining the clans which change and tie into your BM title). For other guilds the usual case is that OCC takes precedence over LAY option and most guilds are somehow restricted in their choice of layman options (I'm sure that RDA would love to join Thornlin Militia and get a second impale...).

If all you really care about is offensive power and you're hell-bent on becoming a blademaster then simply join a guild which lets you do just that. There are plenty of options on both sides of the alignment spectrum.

If you want to remain Angmarim then simply switch to layman branch and join the Mercs, you'll get your max combat aid this way.

Personally I believe that creating weaponmasters would detract from the game rather than add to it. Now there are some interesting choices when it comes to guilds where you have to consider various factors with pros and cons. By introducing a free-for-all offensive combat layman you dumb it down severely. I don't think it would be that good if no guild had any drawbacks to it.
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.

Amberlee
Myth
Posts: 1432
Joined: 08 Mar 2010 19:50
Location: Kristiansund, Norway

Re: Weaponmasters, again.

Post by Amberlee » 27 Sep 2019 19:18

Zhar wrote:
25 Sep 2019 13:47
There are quite a few issues with turning Blademasters into Weaponmasters:

1. It would require rewriting of all the special hit descriptions and help files for all the different kinds of weapons (and that's a lot of work).
2. It would disrupt the current guild relations. Some guilds are considered good because they allow you to join the BM, which make them more powerful. The guilds that don't have access to BM need to look for layman options elsewhere, increasing diversity.
3. It might disrupt the overall balance.

Just from the top of my head.

Also, it would be super boring. Might just as well create a layman branch of Glads that gives you charge but no weapon trainings. Would work almost the same, except then probably no one would ever join OCC Glads...

1. Fair point
2. Irrelevant as laymans are not coded from an OCC balance point of view and your argument only reveals the flaw in those OCC guilds and not the idea of weapon masters.
3. No it would simply give a different option for all weapons instead of sword users.
The views posted by me on this forum is not the views of the character Amberlee in-game.
If you ask for my opinion here, you will get MY opinion, not that of my character.

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