Balance Considerations

[buddah]

Blessings to All,

Today I decided to do the rare thing and record some topics that were mentioned today on Discord so that they are not lost in the chaos. I will do my best to do so in the future. Note that these topics are brought up not to demand change or protest but to provide insight into what topics players are curious about and look half of them are not even specifically targeting the Undead race! Let's get along!

1. Should Racial Abilities be counted towards CAID and Tax?

2. Should Racial Abilities Acquired via a Guild be counted as part of that Guild's overall CAID and Tax? (Ogres, Vampires, MM)

3. If a Race can only be acquired via joining a Guild, should the Race Abilities be specifically tailored for each individual Guild? (Ogres vs Two Undead Guilds) (Stuns can hurt Casters quite a bit and Vampires need magical DV but does being an Undead necessitate both?)

4. Is a vague CAID drawback capable of compensating for a definite CAID benefit? (Undead cannot use food/herbs/alcohol but have passive immunities as opposed to Ogres gaining strength but losing attack speed.)

5. Are certain drawbacks not tailored and result in free CAID? (MM cannot drink booze but Casters in general do not drink booze) (Undead suffer extra damage from life abilities, however NPCS do not heal enemies or cast life spells as far as I am aware which leads to free CAID during PVE content)

6. Do combination Guilds, a guild that takes up more than one slot, have worse CAID/Tax ratios than individual guilds combined? (Due to a lack in overlap in redundant abilities and skills)

7. Is it possible and should it be possible that if the Guilds you are in overlap in skills, you need only pay tax for that particular skill once? (Calians in the Militia and Travelers, triple the polearms!) (Tax breaks!)

8. Is too much versatility in a Guild a problem? While it may be compensated by tax and that the CAID threshold of a Guild will not be exceed, does a 99% tax Guild with every ability you can possibly imagine promote a healthy game environment?

The only real suggestion is number seven, so feel free to move the post if you think it belongs somewhere else!

Sincerely,
Buddah - Brother in Two Realms

[Arman]

All good questions.

Having taken a lead role in the past overseeing game balance, these questions (plus an awful lot more) are questions we have grappled with as an administration. One thing I'd like to point out is that balance in Genesis is something that evolves and is improved over time... but one thing we aren't aiming for is equality. I remember Gorboth's early vision was that we want there to be distinction between guilds and races... that equality ultimately results in a very bland gaming experience.

So when i was in the role we were looking more at a balance system of rock > paper > scissors > rock.. aiming for pros and cons to different roles, within measurable power boundaries. CAID being the main one for guilds.

There are so many assumptions, caveats and carveouts when it comes to allocation of CAID... when measuring and determining these for guilds. Its not perfect, and I have no doubt how we treat benefits for guilds will change and improve over time.

As an example, skills don't count towards a guild's CAID cap. Do skills impact CAID? Certain ones do massively! Stats massively do as well, but CAID guild caps doesn't scale to stat size? While this isn't a focus of the admin, at some point it wouldn't surprise me if guilds are tweaked to account for this... and other things. There are combat abilities which do not count towards CAID caps... like fatigue restorers, movement restrictors, poison healing. There are some abilities that provide CAID in specific situations... a strength stat boost provides aid to warriors but not to spellcasters. How do we treat situational benefits? There isn't really any accounting for CAID benefit of stopping mobs from assisting an attacked team mate... how do we account for that?

So if there is one certainty players should embrace, is that how things work now will change over time. Which brings my back to my opening statement... these sort of questions you raise Buddah are really healthy for the game's evolution.

Anyway... that was kind of a long roundabout preface to get to your questions . In my non-admin opinion:

1. Should Racial Abilities be counted towards CAID and Tax?
There are different opinions about this. Some people feel strongly that they like racial distinction... I personally liked the differences in racial stat profiles. Was that system balanced and fair? No, not really. The current racial abilities you get I think provides racial distinction without being destabilising... and I don't think need to be taxed. I think a conversation could be had around providing more racial distinction through racial guilds where CAID and tax would come into it... but when it comes to projects the wizard community are focused on this wouldn't be a high priority.

2. Should Racial Abilities Acquired via a Guild be counted as part of that Guild's overall CAID and Tax? (Ogres, Vampires, MM)
I had this conversation with Gorboth, and he swayed me to his point of view. He said in some cases our position should support creativity over true balance. His ogres broke established balance guildlines at the time. His planned necromancer guild definitely broke established balance guidelines (but what i saw was super cool... really sad that never eventuated). The "undead race" provides clear benefits but also disadvantages. Yes they are disadvantages that can be overcome, but also the benefits provided are benefits that can be obtained by players without a tax or CAID penalty in most cases. On balance I think that is ok.

3. If a Race can only be acquired via joining a Guild, should the Race Abilities be specifically tailored for each individual Guild? (Ogres vs Two Undead Guilds) (Stuns can hurt Casters quite a bit and Vampires need magical DV but does being an Undead necessitate both?)
Fair question, and one that has been discussed since implementation. There is some history associated with this, and the decision was for 'undead' to be a unique state not tied to guild.

4. Is a vague CAID drawback capable of compensating for a definite CAID benefit? (Undead cannot use food/herbs/alcohol but have passive immunities as opposed to Ogres gaining strength but losing attack speed.)
When you get down into the nitty gritty of CAID, it is all vague . In most cases you aren't comparing apples with apples when it comes to combat benefit, even they have a CAID value calculated.

5. Are certain drawbacks not tailored and result in free CAID? (MM cannot drink booze but Casters in general do not drink booze) (Undead suffer extra damage from life abilities, however NPCS do not heal enemies or cast life spells as far as I am aware which leads to free CAID during PVE content)
Its really difficult to allocate CAID for situational circumstances. The game is full of free CAID through equipment and herbs. And a lot of the popular guilds do benefit from situational use of their abilities. These examples of free/situational CAID are pretty fringe compared to other examples players accept. Like all out of combat healing.

6. Do combination Guilds, a guild that takes up more than one slot, have worse CAID/Tax ratios than individual guilds combined? (Due to a lack in overlap in redundant abilities and skills)
Yes they do. Although some would argue they are less versatile... (a WoHS doesn't have healing ability while a SoHM/minstrel does).

7. Is it possible and should it be possible that if the Guilds you are in overlap in skills, you need only pay tax for that particular skill once? (Calians in the Militia and Travelers, triple the polearms!) (Tax breaks!)
Possible, but the skill overlap is pretty neglible to their tax. It would be a lot of code work to incorporate a global system taking those things in to account for very little change.

8. Is too much versatility in a Guild a problem? While it may be compensated by tax and that the CAID threshold of a Guild will not be exceed, does a 99% tax Guild with every ability you can possibly imagine promote a healthy game environment?
Guild versatility is something the admin is currently grappling with. Less in the occupational space than the layman space though. For occupational guilds the tax, skills, and CAID guide rails restrict the sort of situation you are talking about... I think where players perceive an imbalance is actually more a reflection in the difference in size of players, which is uncapped.

[OgreToyBoy]

Fair question, and one that has been discussed since implementation. There is some history associated with this, and the decision was for 'undead' to be a unique state not tied to guild.

Undead race is just way to overpowered in many ways. There is no way to create the same effect with items or herbs ( stun immunity for example )
Since it is not tied to a specific guild I suggest it to be unlocked for everyone, many wizards have said it is balanced so why not let the players decide?

Straag

[Arman]

Fair question, and one that has been discussed since implementation. There is some history associated with this, and the decision was for 'undead' to be a unique state not tied to guild.

Undead race is just way to overpowered in many ways. There is no way to create the same effect with items or herbs ( stun immunity for example )
Since it is not tied to a specific guild I suggest it to be unlocked for everyone, many wizards have said it is balanced so why not let the players decide?

Straag

You can decide. Nothing stopping you becoming a vampire?

[buddah]

Hello hello! Sorry for my late reply Arman, I wanted to respond to such a long thorough post that you have generously supplied with transparency with an equal amount of effort. It is fascinating to hear the perspective of the "other side" on these topics and to note how a player's thought process behind a Guild's skills and their CAID/Tax is vastly different than what the truth is. Turns out CAID was the wrong system of measurement here!

The Value of Skills, Problem of Overlap, and Potential Solution?

Only now it is apparent to me that Skills are limited based on a different system than CAID or Tax and I don't mean how layman skills are capped off at journeyman or craftsman but rather there's likely an allocation for various types of skills. I should of realized this as the Trickster Guild offers a plethora of skills and neat abilities for the low price of 4%! Allow me to rephrase my seventh question to the following:

7. Should compensation be given if there is an overlap in the skills of the Guilds you are in?

I think skills play a huge factor in Guild choice and I am shocked it lacks a larger presence in the CAID/Tax system.
Magic Guilds are taxed heavily (from the perspective of players) based on versatility. Having a second or third Weapon skill is in my opinion like having another set of melee spells so I would assume Melee Guilds that have more weapon choices are taxed heavier.

Speaking of Melee Guilds I think skill overlap is a significant factor as to why Melee Layman Guilds are so unpopular (besides lack of healing). From the perspective of Occupational Melee Guilds, the only real combat benefits offered from Melee Laymans are special abilities. Any weapon skill that isn't available as a Superior Guru is likely ignored and if you are trying to benefit from defensive skills like either parry or acrobatics you likely already have one from your Melee Occupational that is related to your weapon type. Although you could get the defensive skill you lack from a Melee Layman Guild, you aren't likely able to take advantage from it unless you are a knife user. Heck even Magic Guilds that occupy a Occupational Slot either already take up the Layman Slot or offer a better defense skills already (SOHM has Journeyman Defense).

Laymans in the current system do not offer any non-Guild Guru skills so you could probably strip every Melee Layman Guild to an almost Blademaster-like equivalent and Guild distributions would probably be the same. I for example am a Monk/Saurian. The primary skills of both Guilds are the same (Unarmed Combat/Defense/Acrobatics) and I am only in the Guild because 1. It's super cool and 2. I like the special abilities. Perhaps that's the argument for why skills have a insignificant value?

I think the answer to Melee Guilds and overlaps lies in skills like Spellcraft. Spellcraft performs, from my perspective, miracles across the board for all Guilds because of how everyone can use it in some way. I tried testing how quickly my mana drained with an intense mana costing item like the thin gold ring and having guru spellcraft as opposed to journeyman and my mana pool nearly lasted double from my perspective. Now I have superior amateur spellcraft and nearly supreme mental stats and I can barely wear a black bandana and be "pissed" without mana drain. If all my skill overlap was funneled into a universally coveted skill like spellcraft, I would be a very happy Lizard. I am sure Occupational Only Magic Guilds would also be happy with acquiring additional spellcraft via a Layman Magic Guild. Perhaps it would be more fitting if Melee Layman Guilds had a new skill that can only be acquired by having an overlap in melee skills called "Well-Trained" that increases passive HP regen or some offensive benefit.

Racial Abilities

I think what Straag was trying to say is that maybe certain abilities go too far and limit the design space for the Realms. I.e. immunities. Due to the presence of the Undead, Wizards are less inclined to create Bosses or Guilds that focus on poison. While I was told Nazgul was modified to adapt to being fought by an Undead and does extra non-poison based attacks on them to compensate, other Bosses (Jadestone, Saurian Chief) or some of the perhaps most dangerous regular npcs (Yochols) do not and it would probably take a long process to update all these npcs and be tedious to always need to consider the Undead in the creation of future enemies. But wait Buddah! The MM rely on poison immunity to function! Absolutely and they should have it, however their immunity is balanced by the fact that MM are not in theory supposed to be on the frontline so them having it to serve as a neat ability and facilitator of their powers is fun and good! The Vampires who are Melee Fighters that are intended to tank these poisonous attacks on the other hand...

Then you have the coveted stun immunity and Orcs, Thanar Priests, NPC Saurians, (I think Mergula and Benton also fail to stun the Undead?), and so on do not adjust to better face their Undead opponents. While many guilds and herbs have ways to "achieve" poison immunity, I do not know of a way to ignore stuns (and if there is a way, don't post it here! I don't want to get countered!) outside of being an Undead. Everytime a Wizard wants to create a fun enemy or weapon that uses one of these two types of abilities, there will likely be backlash from the community.

I absolutely agree that creativity should flourish even if it pushes the envelope and goes past true balance because that's how passion enters this game and reaches so many people and captivates them. However, in this case, there are certain abilities that are destabilising and require reevaluation. In fact the Undead were reevaluated prior to me joining Genesis as they had Unlimited Stamina which while serving the archetype of "undead are tireless creatures" resulted in an extreme amount of power that I fail to understand on so many levels. I believe the Undead need another reevaluation as they are an unique state instead of specific and due to someone on the Discord mentioning the following thought experiment:

What percentage of Players, not factoring interference from their current Guilds and roleplaying, would want to join a neutral racial slot Undead Guild that only contained the racial abilities? Or maybe the better question would be, if they could replace their racial traits, excluding ogres, with the Undead racial traits, would they? I think if you took a poll the percentage would be an incredible majority.

Now sure that is an unfair assessment as you don't join the Undead Race in a vacuum. However, let's compare, again unfairly but perhaps less so, to other races like Minotaurs which actually take up a neutral racial slot and Ogres which have a unique set of racial abilities.

Minotaurs get an innate higher head armour class and the downside is that a minotaur cannot wear a head slot outside of the minotaur specific armours. In my two years of playing, I have been and met maybe three minotaurs in total and the only reason why I and these players were Minotaurs was to get into Minas Tirith as a base race Goblin.

So let's talk about Ogres that have such a unique set of abilities! Wielding a two hander as if it was a toothpick! (Which actually leads to perhaps something ungodly when wielding a two handed staff while still getting the bonus spell power of having one hand free) Innate Armour Class and Magic Resistance! What percentage of the population would want to join a neutral racial slot Ogre Guild that only contained the racial abilities? Magic users are likely out (once ungodly two handed staff free hand craziness gets addressed) unless maybe you want to do some kind of Retribution Ward build so lets talk about Melee users. Ogres offer innate tankiness but the limitation on wearing other armours and having to personally imbue all your gear, especially with DV, and less dexterity would deter many players interested in tanking despite the increase in constitution. As for the DPS? I profess there could be a combination of Guilds that could really use having two-handers as one handers (I am a bit lacking on weapon-based knowledge as I am a Monk!) but I know Ogres get Supreme Guru weapon skills like the rest of the Melee Guilds and I assume their Special is relatively as good as any other and their damage has never been ridiculous from my perspective.

I definitely agree that roleplaying and the various lore backgrounds of the Guilds absolutely impact a player's choice and why certain abilities are given to certain guilds and races, and the goal should never be about always being optimal or perfectly balanced. I bet there would be quite a bit of Ogre Casters and it's a shame there isn't! It sounds like a very fun time! And it's absolutely a fair point to say that if the Undead are so good, specifically Vampires as the MM is not a free to join Guild, why aren't there more? The State of the Donut addressed there were more "active" Vampires around in 2022 than any other Guild but they dropped to second place in 2023! Does that mean Mercenaries are the real threat or was there historical context as to why Vampires dropped in mass during a specific window? The goal of this thread is to speak about balance as well as what is healthy for the game so I only considered a limited amount of things (and only if they furthered my argument!) instead of lore, roleplaying, etc. Well If you allow the Monks to polymorph into Dragons, I will definitely say everything is absolutely balanced and will refuse to believe otherwise!

Sincerely,
Brother Buddah

P.S.: My favorite quote is "When you get down into the nitty gritty of CAID, it is all vague " The difficulty of the job is not lost on me!

[buddah]

Just to be clear, I doubt anyone would say the racial abilities are innately beyond reason (besides infinite stamina but that was addressed!) as perhaps there is a fair trade off for stun immunity, maybe the undead take damage instead and keep fighting. As it is now, the common thought of the players and myself included (forgive us for our ignorance!) is that having the Undead racial abilities apply universally as they are does not make for a healthy game environment and Genesis could benefit from either the Racial Abilities being more tailored, drawbacks more related to their benefits, or have the abilities be less oppressive, i.e. their abilities currently say YOU CANNOT X as opposed to IT IS DIFFICULT TO X.

Also this discussion while focusing on the Undead, is really a conversation to be applied globally. If anyone spots other related issues. please mention them! Kender have innate dragon fear resistance! But they are surely wonderful, blameless, beautiful creatures! Monks are too oppressive in 1v1s! Lower the accuracy of plexus!

Sincerely,
Brother Buddah

P.S. My apologies I often make typos and edit my posts afterwards. The Time is now 12:42 am and I am done editing.

[Arman]

Thanks for the meaty response! I can see the conversations turning into a wall of text battle

I want to caveat my response again to say I am not part of the admin anymore, so take my responses in that light. But I have been part of that world long enough to have some insights in to the historic thinking

Hello hello! Sorry for my late reply Arman, I wanted to respond to such a long thorough post that you have generously supplied with transparency with an equal amount of effort. It is fascinating to hear the perspective of the "other side" on these topics and to note how a player's thought process behind a Guild's skills and their CAID/Tax is vastly different than what the truth is. Turns out CAID was the wrong system of measurement here!

It is fascinating. But I also want to flag that learning the numbers and the mechanics of things does take some of the magic and mystery out of the game. There are things I am just not going to share, even if that results in players going way down a path of righteous misunderstanding. The admin know that sometimes their responses are vague and unsatisfying, but that is a burden they will carry for the good of one of the core principles of the game. We don't do numbers.

The Value of Skills, Problem of Overlap, and Potential Solution?

Only now it is apparent to me that Skills are limited based on a different system than CAID or Tax and I don't mean how layman skills are capped off at journeyman or craftsman but rather there's likely an allocation for various types of skills. I should of realized this as the Trickster Guild offers a plethora of skills and neat abilities for the low price of 4%! Allow me to rephrase my seventh question to the following:

7. Should compensation be given if there is an overlap in the skills of the Guilds you are in?

I think skills play a huge factor in Guild choice and I am shocked it lacks a larger presence in the CAID/Tax system.
Magic Guilds are taxed heavily (from the perspective of players) based on versatility. Having a second or third Weapon skill is in my opinion like having another set of melee spells so I would assume Melee Guilds that have more weapon choices are taxed heavier.

So guilds have set skill caps. All occupational guilds sit at their skill cap maximum. The more specialised a guild is the less skill versatility they have. Skills are taxed based on skill categories... I won't talk specifics, but it should surprise no one that a skill like defence will get taxed higher than animal handling. Guilds also have to take into account 'foreign skill' penalties if their guild uses skills outside of their guild type category (fighter, thief, mage, cleric). Ranger guild types have a foreign skill carve out as 'jack of all trades', so they are an outlier in the skills they can train.

So there is some complexity associated with skill allocation that will impact tax.

CAID was not always a thing we included in guild balance. It was brought in a while ago to reign in powerful specials with opaque damage or combat benefit that contributed to perceived and real differences in the power of occupational and layman guilds. So CAID measurement was primarily focused on guild specials, and a tax paid based on CAID.

So skills do play a substantial part in the tax system, but they are separate from CAID calculations and caps. But let's put it in perspective... on balance less than half a guild's tax is skills. As examples from my creations SoHM around a third of their total tax, DAs and lay minotaurs are around 40% of their total tax, OotS is less than half.

Speaking of Melee Guilds I think skill overlap is a significant factor as to why Melee Layman Guilds are so unpopular (besides lack of healing).

So I don't think its that significant. Keep in mind they aren't getting taxed on the skill levels trainable in Adventurer Guilds. So the actual tax they are paying for that skill overlap is small.

I think the lack of popularity of melee layman guilds is that magic alternatives provide more versatility.

Personally, I like magic guilds providing versatility (within reason... they shouldn't be able to do everything... that breaks the rock > paper > scissors > rock model). However I would love to see layman melee guilds provide specialisation benefit for those that pair an occupational fighter style with a layman fighter style. I think that sort of concept of specialisation could be a really nice alternative play style. That's a bit of blue sky thinking... but if we ever went down solution mode, i'd rather enhance melee laymans than nerf layman magic guilds.

From the perspective of Occupational Melee Guilds, the only real combat benefits offered from Melee Laymans are special abilities. Any weapon skill that isn't available as a Superior Guru is likely ignored and if you are trying to benefit from defensive skills like either parry or acrobatics you likely already have one from your Melee Occupational that is related to your weapon type. Although you could get the defensive skill you lack from a Melee Layman Guild, you aren't likely able to take advantage from it unless you are a knife user. Heck even Magic Guilds that occupy a Occupational Slot either already take up the Layman Slot or offer a better defense skills already (SOHM has Journeyman Defense).

Laymans in the current system do not offer any non-Guild Guru skills so you could probably strip every Melee Layman Guild to an almost Blademaster-like equivalent and Guild distributions would probably be the same. I for example am a Monk/Saurian. The primary skills of both Guilds are the same (Unarmed Combat/Defense/Acrobatics) and I am only in the Guild because 1. It's super cool and 2. I like the special abilities. Perhaps that's the argument for why skills have a insignificant value?

I think the answer to Melee Guilds and overlaps lies in skills like Spellcraft. Spellcraft performs, from my perspective, miracles across the board for all Guilds because of how everyone can use it in some way. I tried testing how quickly my mana drained with an intense mana costing item like the thin gold ring and having guru spellcraft as opposed to journeyman and my mana pool nearly lasted double from my perspective. Now I have superior amateur spellcraft and nearly supreme mental stats and I can barely wear a black bandana and be "pissed" without mana drain. If all my skill overlap was funneled into a universally coveted skill like spellcraft, I would be a very happy Lizard. I am sure Occupational Only Magic Guilds would also be happy with acquiring additional spellcraft via a Layman Magic Guild. Perhaps it would be more fitting if Melee Layman Guilds had a new skill that can only be acquired by having an overlap in melee skills called "Well-Trained" that increases passive HP regen or some offensive benefit.

If the focus of layman guilds was min/maxxing, that would make sense. But we don't apologise for creating layman guilds thematically. Players just need to accept that at this point layman guilds may have levels of skill redundancy depending on their occupational choices.

Racial Abilities

I think what Straag was trying to say is that maybe certain abilities go too far and limit the design space for the Realms. I.e. immunities. Due to the presence of the Undead, Wizards are less inclined to create Bosses or Guilds that focus on poison. While I was told Nazgul was modified to adapt to being fought by an Undead and does extra non-poison based attacks on them to compensate, other Bosses (Jadestone, Saurian Chief) or some of the perhaps most dangerous regular npcs (Yochols) do not and it would probably take a long process to update all these npcs and be tedious to always need to consider the Undead in the creation of future enemies. But wait Buddah! The MM rely on poison immunity to function! Absolutely and they should have it, however their immunity is balanced by the fact that MM are not in theory supposed to be on the frontline so them having it to serve as a neat ability and facilitator of their powers is fun and good! The Vampires who are Melee Fighters that are intended to tank these poisonous attacks on the other hand...

Then you have the coveted stun immunity and Orcs, Thanar Priests, NPC Saurians, (I think Mergula and Benton also fail to stun the Undead?), and so on do not adjust to better face their Undead opponents. While many guilds and herbs have ways to "achieve" poison immunity, I do not know of a way to ignore stuns (and if there is a way, don't post it here! I don't want to get countered!) outside of being an Undead. Everytime a Wizard wants to create a fun enemy or weapon that uses one of these two types of abilities, there will likely be backlash from the community.

I absolutely agree that creativity should flourish even if it pushes the envelope and goes past true balance because that's how passion enters this game and reaches so many people and captivates them. However, in this case, there are certain abilities that are destabilising and require reevaluation. In fact the Undead were reevaluated prior to me joining Genesis as they had Unlimited Stamina which while serving the archetype of "undead are tireless creatures" resulted in an extreme amount of power that I fail to understand on so many levels. I believe the Undead need another reevaluation as they are an unique state instead of specific and due to someone on the Discord mentioning the following thought experiment:

What percentage of Players, not factoring interference from their current Guilds and roleplaying, would want to join a neutral racial slot Undead Guild that only contained the racial abilities? Or maybe the better question would be, if they could replace their racial traits, excluding ogres, with the Undead racial traits, would they? I think if you took a poll the percentage would be an incredible majority.

Maybe, but its the same sort of argument you could put to most non-sword wielding guilds in the game. Ask gladiators or Angmar if they could have superior guru sword and useable with their specials, at the cost of their appraise enemy or sneak/hide, would the incredible majority take it?

Probably, but we aren't going to offer that. Thematically we don't want everyone running around as sword wielders... just like we don't want everyone running around as undead. Yes club and axe wielders are at a disadvantage to sword wielders when it comes to top tier weapons, but rather than give them the ability to use swords we'd rather create new and unique axes and clubs. The benefits of undeath is kind of the same... you are likely aware of some of the new items courtesy of Santetra in the Emerald domain that offers unique benefits. That sort of thing. The game evolves over time, with the balance of power swinging as new content gets added. And I think opening up undead race to all would be an overreaction.

Now sure that is an unfair assessment as you don't join the Undead Race in a vacuum. However, let's compare, again unfairly but perhaps less so, to other races like Minotaurs which actually take up a neutral racial slot and Ogres which have a unique set of racial abilities.

Minotaurs get an innate higher head armour class and the downside is that a minotaur cannot wear a head slot outside of the minotaur specific armours. In my two years of playing, I have been and met maybe three minotaurs in total and the only reason why I and these players were Minotaurs was to get into Minas Tirith as a base race Goblin.

As a guild I created, I get that. It was created back during a time of lack of layman guild options, and for a period of time they were quite popular. A special attack that didn't require a specific weapon, a lot of untaxed unique abilities (like wielding tessto's one handed or minotaur-only equipment, or sailing skill) that made them attractive. As the game evolved and changed and new weapons and layman guilds have been introduced they are less popular. Its kind of the nature of guilds. As things change, that may swing back... but they are comparable to other similar (unpopular) melee layman guilds.

So let's talk about Ogres that have such a unique set of abilities! Wielding a two hander as if it was a toothpick! (Which actually leads to perhaps something ungodly when wielding a two handed staff while still getting the bonus spell power of having one hand free) Innate Armour Class and Magic Resistance! What percentage of the population would want to join a neutral racial slot Ogre Guild that only contained the racial abilities? Magic users are likely out (once ungodly two handed staff free hand craziness gets addressed) unless maybe you want to do some kind of Retribution Ward build so lets talk about Melee users. Ogres offer innate tankiness but the limitation on wearing other armours and having to personally imbue all your gear, especially with DV, and less dexterity would deter many players interested in tanking despite the increase in constitution. As for the DPS? I profess there could be a combination of Guilds that could really use having two-handers as one handers (I am a bit lacking on weapon-based knowledge as I am a Monk!) but I know Ogres get Supreme Guru weapon skills like the rest of the Melee Guilds and I assume their Special is relatively as good as any other and their damage has never been ridiculous from my perspective.

Yep, the ogres are a great example of creativity trumping the established guild design rules. It kind of helped that its creator was also the Keeper . And i think this is a great example of how balance can be achieved outside of the balance rules.

I definitely agree that roleplaying and the various lore backgrounds of the Guilds absolutely impact a player's choice and why certain abilities are given to certain guilds and races, and the goal should never be about always being optimal or perfectly balanced. I bet there would be quite a bit of Ogre Casters and it's a shame there isn't! It sounds like a very fun time! And it's absolutely a fair point to say that if the Undead are so good, specifically Vampires as the MM is not a free to join Guild, why aren't there more? The State of the Donut addressed there were more "active" Vampires around in 2022 than any other Guild but they dropped to second place in 2023! Does that mean Mercenaries are the real threat or was there historical context as to why Vampires dropped in mass during a specific window? The goal of this thread is to speak about balance as well as what is healthy for the game so I only considered a limited amount of things (and only if they furthered my argument!) instead of lore, roleplaying, etc. Well If you allow the Monks to polymorph into Dragons, I will definitely say everything is absolutely balanced and will refuse to believe otherwise!

All valid points. I think the one about the concentration of players in the mercenaries is a bigger issue than the perceptions around the undead race. But I do want to reinforce these conversations are really healthy for the game. The game is constantly changing (just reflect on the journey of the monk guild to see their downs and ups over time). It may sometimes feel like the admin may be ignoring issues raised, but they don't. They just don't discuss mechanics in front of the children .

Sincerely,
Brother Buddah

P.S.: My favorite quote is "When you get down into the nitty gritty of CAID, it is all vague " The difficulty of the job is not lost on me!

I tried to come up with an analogy of how to describe CAID. Couldn't think of a good one... but there are so many elements of the game that make it really hard to put a fixed benefit value to. And we have some really creative wizards making amazing things. It can be really challenging work being Arch of Balance, so be kind to Ckrik... its the second hardest admin gig after Arch of Players (which is the admin role given to the wizard who has annoyed the Keeper the most ).

[Arman]

And it's absolutely a fair point to say that if the Undead are so good, specifically Vampires as the MM is not a free to join Guild, why aren't there more? The State of the Donut addressed there were more "active" Vampires around in 2022 than any other Guild but they dropped to second place in 2023! Does that mean Mercenaries are the real threat or was there historical context as to why Vampires dropped in mass during a specific window? The goal of this thread is to speak about balance as well as what is healthy for the game so I only considered a limited amount of things (and only if they furthered my argument!) instead of lore, roleplaying, etc. Well If you allow the Monks to polymorph into Dragons, I will definitely say everything is absolutely balanced and will refuse to believe otherwise!

PS - I just thought to add that the undead race was created in 2009 and incorporated into the Morgul Mage recode in 2013. It's been around a long time.

I'd just also like to add that we do see public outrage about abilities / game mechanics peak during times of guild conflict. I kind of wish that was tracked in the State of the Donut

And finally I'll add that PVP is inherently and fundamentally unbalanced. That isn't fixable without stat caps, which we all know isn't going to happen.

[Hunter]

Hi,

That could be a good idea.
It would complicate the lives of most people more than make it easier, though. Any guild that relies on healing would have a tough time. Any undead would find it near useless to be a warlock, minstrel, herald, OotS, EW, or pirate (no healing or drinking). It would also remove the ability to use herbs for healing health, mana, or fatigue so no more fart berries, suranie, or chicory. It wouldn't be very productive for PoT because they wouldn't be able to heal themselves. Any of the race based guilds would, of course, be excluded. So no undead Neidar or Elven Archers for example. Some guilds would be excluded by theme like rangers, EC, EW, Monks(?), and SU etc. I imagine Knights wouldn't allow undead.
That leaves SoHM(maybe), WoHS(maybe), Mercs, Calians, Fire Knives (not likely), AA, Gladiators, BDA/RDA(maybe).
For layman guilds you have:
The Cabal and Tricksters, AA, Raiders, Berserkers, Monks(maybe), Thornlin, Blademasters, and Templars.
That leaves some options but looking at the current population of the realm it doesn't leave very many popular options.

But undead as a racial guild option would be cool for people willing to make the sacrifices.

Sincerely,
H

[buddah]

I will try to limit my posts so other people can join in, as I do tend to like to talk longwindly

@Arman thanks for following up again! It's really great to ask questions and see that the Wizards are aware of the state of the game and have considered potential problems before they are even mentioned! Everytime I mail Ckrik I feel like he's ten steps ahead and I feel bad for stealing his attention even for a moment. Indeed Santetra and Ormath have added a lot of items that add functionality where there was none before and that fuels me with immense hope for the future.

I suppose if Wizards had to bandaid every issue like reducing the overall power of the FBB for instance to make other weapons more appealing, the game would be wrapped up like a Mummy! Maybe we all wish we could somehow do something besides being patient (don't ask me to Wiz! I can't be trusted!) and that's why people get restless. I hope that talking about it and just spitballing ideas back and forth will eventually lead to a eureka moment and that's why I am here!

Also whoa the Morgul Mages weren't originally Undead? I wish I could go back in time to visit the Realms of decades prior.

And I, a chaotic creature, would be all forward to caps on stats so that we can reduce the need to grind and increase roleplaying! Heck I am down to wipe all characters clean and start anew!

@Hunter you definitely brought up a good point that I did not consider. I brushed over a major downside of the Undead that most people gloss over. It seems like a lot of conversations always ends up shifting to "healing" considerations aye? Maybe being able to cast heal is too crucial or maybe Genesis is too solo driven without stat caps. I love the Manticore! Anywhoo, perhaps we should take a step further in regard to Undead and Healing to wrap around back to why it could be problematic to not tailor racial abilities.

Since healing would be a major deterrent for a mass signup of the Undead, would you say then if the Undead State, as opposed to a race specific guild as it is only in practice applied as a human race, had access to a Guild or items that would allow them to heal, it would be potentially problematic? This would in theory overcome a major downside thus the other benefits of the state become very lucrative. (Careful I am being tricky here!)

Ah I didn't address it, but isn't healing on death magic ability (although super thematic and I am on board 100%) also limiting game design space? I.e. There can never be enemies that are primarily death based casters or else they would be free food. I suppose we have very few enemies that cast pure magic based attacks. Side note: We should have more generic npcs like that!

Please note once more I am not saying that the Undead have inherently problematic or OP abilities. I am concerned about passive abilities that have a dramatic chilling effect on the game. I am saying there's a lot in there that end up, when added together, creating oppressive circumstances in what is sometimes referred to as niche situations. Then again as the game has had the Undead since 2009, perhaps the reason why their abilities only apply "niche" situations is due to their existence in the first place.

Sincerely only wanting to talk about the Game we Love,
Brother Buddah