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PvP 
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Post PvP
I didn't want to hijack the scaling npc's discussion but PvP was brought up there. I think many can agree that much of the glory days of Genesis involved heavily around guild conflict and playerfighting. I mean Monika other than checking in once or twice a year has not played for at least 12-13 if not longer and is still legendary even to players who are not that old. Saya for all her flaws was another example of this. I never stepped on the Holm when I saw her torque online. It was just not a smart decision.

Let's brainstorm ideas to bring PvP back to the game. I'll start.

Global block was a great install, but for the size many players have reached I think it has little to no chance of blocking someone for that long.

I'd like to see some form of team abilities installed for evils. Its been discussed in another thread and I'm not going to rant about it, but would be nice to see something fun implemented to a guild like AA that gives a way to change tanking, or an increase fury or cover for a team.

The penalty has to be changed with the size of players. I know this just encourages more growth, but with multiple deaths stacking to fully recovered now, once you reach a certain size, with recovery it is always achievable. So killing someone twice in a row (as low as it is) no longer knocks someone back much time. Whenever I PvP my hands are typing furiously, I'm reading a mile a minute, checking my teams health, enemies health, making sure specials are firing etc. When I get trapped somewhere it was always a shame and I honestly sometimes hated losing my gear/herbs/potions (some of which take weeks to gather in quantities) more than I cared about the death that I knew I could recover from. I know Genesis is one game that is extremely unique in such a harsh death penalty, but I honestly think the penalty for a PvP death needs to be lessened or removed. Instead insert some other penalty... like you are left in a weakened condition for a few hours of active play time. I know people can just idle it out but it makes the game look more alive, and perhaps it will get people interested in exploring or questing or going herbing or just plain interacting while they are waiting to heal. Obviously one big problem with this stems for it being more work with wizards. The biggest exploit would be if someone's going to die of a poison or at the yeti, their teammate can just kill them, so they don't suffer as large of a death. There are only a few places and npc's that this can seriously happen on, and I feel like if you kept a log of those certain spots mortals helped you find, you could investigate a death in specific places. Just some ideas to consider on that topic.

Obviously we are all waiting on the magic guilds, and perhaps with the new recodes we will see them playing a more active part in the realm. And also I'm sure it will be a boon in the way of crowd control as magic users typically have abilities for this from their immortal caretakers.

What would this change and why is it useful? In my opinion it gets guilds back into conflicts. Players will be gearing more, will be gathering teams to go out and kill people. It would change the dynamic of guild relations and people's shyness away from player fights. You are no longer going to lose for the casual player perhaps months of work. For a returning player with enemies still running around, you might die, but you lose gear, and have to suffer a weakened state. It will make the game feel more alive. Perhaps teams will start congregating to jump people in certain places. Team battles might actually result in a few deaths. If you die, it then goes to whoever is the quickest to get everything from your corpse so your team can possibly recover your gear. You no longer are forced to retreat if a teammate is dying as they might sacrifice themselves for the bigger kill.

I know we all want the recodes to be done, and people have questioned other things being released in lieu of some guilds (Tips hat to Laurel) still awaiting their recode and feeling crippled. But we have also started talking about campaigning for new players soon. Wouldn't it be fun to come out of the newbie realm and see people fighting in sparkle, actively seeking and destroying, and then when the battle ends stopping to talk to the new player.

Death will still hurt if you get killed while your fighting an NPC but the playerfighting I think would really pick up a lot.

Just my 2 cc.


11 Mar 2011 19:21
Another point I want to bring up and Creed and Earth I especially want to hear your opinion (same with you mega if you are still around.) I know the three of you generally dislike playerfighting, and avoid it at all costs. If a different system was implemented do you think you would be more open to conflict around the realm or would you continue for RP reasons to promote peace and not enjoy the fighting as much. Often enough when at least Earth is active I find him killing on the plains a lot when we are conquering back and forth. I of course must protect my troops and attack him, and he runs off (typically just to another plain on his silly warhorse while I get all tired.) But if I run into him again in say Middle earth even though we are still in combat I'd be willing to stop fighting or I just don't pursue. I've tried explaining the concept to my soldiers and I feel like for the most part it works out in a good system, but at the same time BDA and Knights should be at war nonstop... Let's be honest we do live in the War of the Lance, and its silly to not have conflicts.

So I guess in that ramble.... If a new system was implemented that minimized the damaging side-effects of PvP in regards to losing months of work, would it inspire you to perhaps more actively engage in pfighting?


11 Mar 2011 19:27
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I think a PVP death should take no longer then 1 week to recover from (And I'm not talking 8 hours a day grinding mobs to get back to point A)

That should encourage more people to be involved if they know the only have about a week out of the fight. If someone is killed twice because they choose to get involved again they recover should be like a week and 3 days. And the second death can't happen unless the player themselves flags themself into PVP (Like WoW) but unlike wow it won't wear off in X amount of time. Once you join the conflict after a death, your in it.

This would give the person who died time to recoop without being endlessly hunted.

Now there could be certain flags that enter the player into combat without doing so manually. Killing a Nazgul, Killing BDA/RDA/Knight, Calian Guards in Gelan, Neidars on the Plains, NPCS that are specific to the guild.

Players could then log on and get an update on who's actively flagged for PVP for your guild.

As you read the poster you noticed the following wanted posters

Ilrahil for crimes against the Secret Society of Uncle Trap, yada yada.

This way all PVP is player activated (Unless someone decides to start a war). If there is an active war a player can choose to participate or not again, and if they are already killed once, there is no worries of being dragged into another time. Granted there's some possible loopholes here, but I'm sure with some more indepth thought it could be refined.


11 Mar 2011 19:45
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Generally I'm not really against PvP, if its fair and both parties know they are involved in it all is fine.
In most games that support playerfighting there are no fair fights, there will always be a gang of people
griefing onto other players. Which leads to those on the outnumbered side or those who disslike PvP or
needs to recover from deaths will just not log on. If for some reason the losers get enough people to
build a team those who grief will run and hide, they have no interest in 'fair' fighting as they are to afraid
to die themselves.

Let's say RbDA(Rainbow) declare war on the Ogre guild because we ogres are bot machines who only get our xp in Kabal :roll:
We now have a situation where I would not log on, none would team with me and when I get attacked it will
not be by one or two RbDA's, it will be a pack of rabid dogs to ensure none of them die or I get away.

PvP is not fair and if you don't want to be a part of it you should be allowed to stay on the outside.
Now the only options are to play on obscur hours or not log on, remember when the infamous Knight
spread his love and happiness throughout the realms. Was an uproar on these forums on how he abused
his powers and secret cheat items (items you wanted yourself) etc. I did not see many of that guilds
enemies being logged on during those days of renegade behaviour. Sometimes you should be careful what
you wish for.


11 Mar 2011 21:27
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OgreToyBoy wrote:
Generally I'm not really against PvP, if its fair and both parties know they are involved in it all is fine.
In most games that support playerfighting there are no fair fights, there will always be a gang of people
griefing onto other players. Which leads to those on the outnumbered side or those who disslike PvP or
needs to recover from deaths will just not log on. If for some reason the losers get enough people to
build a team those who grief will run and hide, they have no interest in 'fair' fighting as they are to afraid
to die themselves.

Let's say RbDA(Rainbow) declare war on the Ogre guild because we ogres are bot machines who only get our xp in Kabal :roll:
We now have a situation where I would not log on, none would team with me and when I get attacked it will
not be by one or two RbDA's, it will be a pack of rabid dogs to ensure none of them die or I get away.

PvP is not fair and if you don't want to be a part of it you should be allowed to stay on the outside.
Now the only options are to play on obscur hours or not log on, remember when the infamous Knight
spread his love and happiness throughout the realms. Was an uproar on these forums on how he abused
his powers and secret cheat items (items you wanted yourself) etc. I did not see many of that guilds
enemies being logged on during those days of renegade behaviour. Sometimes you should be careful what
you wish for.



The Knight you speak of killing-spree was during a time when recovery didn't exist I believe. Also if there was a "PVP" recovery then you are speaking about Apples and Oranges. I agree also, someone should have to "involve" themselves in PVP, otherwise they can carry on playing as normal.


11 Mar 2011 21:54
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Yes that spree was during a time when recovery didn't mean returning to your normal size. So every consequent death meant about 5-10 average lower with no recovery. I don't really want to get into a debate about the knights though. I want to hear input on the topic of PvP.. Is it something that genesides want I think it could be interesting to see other ideas. Your topic about the knights... makes I feel my points in regards to PvP relevant, because you wouldn't have had as much of the negative energy.


11 Mar 2011 21:59
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This may promote more action, conflicts and pvp and at the same time lessen the burden on the AoP when people dies.

*likes*

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11 Mar 2011 22:17
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You could also take this a step further and let players choose to be individually involved vs the whole guild for alliances and such.

I believe there's a Mercenary Style function in game, such as bounties and such? (Could be mistaken)

But such as X kills the Nazgul and gets the PvP flag against the Society. The King of Minas Morgul decides to put a bounty on the head of this Individual X and say a player decides to take that bounty and accepts it. Now in the decription of the player is a note viewable "You notice that Alexi has allied himself with Minas Morgul".

This doesn't place my current guild "The Dragon Order" in a war against player X's, but it does enter me into that conflict.

Just another angle I had considered while working, or appearing to work.


11 Mar 2011 23:22
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Perhaps I shouldn't be writing while intoxicated...


Generally I've not been so fearful of death.. as anyone who has known Kitriana... she has died many many many many many many times... though mostly from her own stupidity. (Damn bicorns!! ) But Personally.. i would be more prone to PVP if the penalty was lower. Especially as I've gotten larger... I hate hate hate hate grinding... so the idea of dying at my current size... and having to grind again to get back to where I am now is soooooooooooooooo unappealing. I want to shoot myself just thinking about it. It does not encourage me to play.

Also -- when Kitriana was a Calian and being hunted for certain reasons by several individuals... Alone..(which tends to be my gameplay due to my location and hours of play).. I would never step outside of the halls if those people were awake. It just felt like I was on constant watch and I felt like I couldn't enjoy myself for fear of death.

But I think that if the penalty was less... I wouldn't have minded it so much.

another things to consider is that for some people.. based on guilds... its not so much the xp loss.. but the equipment and component loss. Some people spend weeks accumulating components they need. This is just as much a problem for PVP.


Ok.. i'm going to go back to my drunken stupor now...

kit's player

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12 Mar 2011 15:35
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Well, I fully agree with Ilrahil.

I have been suggesting for many years to have a that penalty that is "one fanta". I think that is perfectly enough. The EQ loss and humilation is perfectly enough. For those who have tons of components they dont wish to lose, they always have the option of not bringing all their thousands of herbs everytime they go out, I dont think that is the big issue. The big issue I think is the fear of getting killed. I can say I would be much more interested in pvp if the penalty was a fanta.

Also, we could make block and other stun-abilities better I think. The global block is pretty pointless and I wonder if those who decided to implement it play the same game as the rest of us... (no offence but I think a bunch of the admin could benefit from playing a legend/myth char awhile). It has to block much more than it does if it is going to be of any use, I think its very obvious. And with a lower death penalty we can safely make these abilties much stronger without having to worry too much.

I dont believe in flags at all. If you join the knights who are a pvp guild coded for conflicts and enemies, and who have a goal to actually fight the Dragonarmies for control in Krynn then I think you should expect PVP or chose another guild. Or another game. Sorry Chade, Earth and all. Thats what I think. Back in the days Knights were an offensive pvp guild who actively sought to destroy their enemies, and thats how it should be in my opinion. Being a knight and shying away from that is to me a coward. Sorry guys, I mean no offence, just expressing how I would like to see this game. I know many dont agree.

It is perfectly possible to play this game without being bothered by PVP even without flags or other fancy code to help you. If you dont join a war-prone guild and dont mess with people, you'll be fine. Sure, there is the slight possibility you might be "murdered" for absolutely no reason, or simply by mistake, but I think the world should be dangerous and free. And if the penelty is just a fanta... its not THAT big of a deal. And really not even the big badass people usually randomly kill people. And even with Bale who played a "I am gonna smash anything" ogre it was possible to RP yourself out of it.

It is highly unlikely someone is going to start a war against all monks, or ogres, or mercs for instance. However if you join a guild like AA, Ranger, Knights, DA who are created to protect areas, to have enemies and created for PVP then you should have to pfight. Again, dont like it. Join a neutral guild, RP a neutral char, and stay out of it. Or like I said, play another game without PVP.

But we cant make everyone like it. Gorboth and the admin has to make a decision. Is this a player versus player game or a co-op game or a combination. No matter what you chose, some people will be unhappy. If PVP get "big" again some will most likely leave and/or not play. And others will return/play more. I would definitely play more, Ilrahil most likely too, and others. PVP "haters" might play less.

Make a choice. And go with it. Please. I defenitely want a PVP-rich game with tons of conflict and politics. I think that always was the most interesting part of Genesis and the current co-op grind where everyone are friends no matter of guild bores me. And I have a feeling I am not alone in this considering the active player numbers. Allthough that has many reasons of course. But atleast for me, this is one of them. A big one.

But for conflicts we need more players of course, but we gotta start somewhere. Could atleast do what we can to encourage conflicts with the population we have. Might lead to something good.


12 Mar 2011 16:29
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