Bonk deleted

[Dread]

Now, I am really not an expert on balance and it's not my "job" to balance things, we Admins have different areas we're in charge of. Mine deals with managing wizards and their projects, and making sure to we add high quality content in the game etc. For balance Gorboth or Cotillion could explain things better.

I however know enough to tell you that it's never been the idea that any two players of different guilds can fight 1vs1 and end up 50% wins. In many cases it's probably 100% in favour of one guild, but the guild winning 0% of the time might win against another guild, and/or in another situation. The idea has always been some type of "rock-paper-scissors" model as I understand it, where guild A beats guild B, and guild B beats guild C, and guild C beats guild A. Extremely simplified of course.

Mixing in all our layman options makes it more complex, we also have racial differences, and of course the fact that some guilds are recoded and follow new balance standards, and others are not, and follow old standards. The goal is obviously that all guilds should be playable in both PVE and PVP, but some might be better or worse in different situations though. Some guilds have more PVP-focus, some guilds are better grinders, some got better burst damage... etc.

So no, you can't pick two guilds, let them fight and it'll be 50-50. That's not how it is, and thats not how it should be either.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that any 2 guilds should fit that mold. However, 2 straight up melee guilds should be pretty close. Why would they not be? I am somewhat ok with a definition of RPS, but that is also not what we have. I would love to see that matrix, please, someone draw that up. We are closer to R/P/S/Nuclear Warhead. If 2 straight melee guilds are not close in power, and the justification is guild tax it would at least make some sense. Although the easy answer there is up the tax and power on the weaker. Seems fairly simple. I'll ask the most important portion of my questions that was either missed or ignored: How can you ever justify power because of subjective factors such as roleplay, and also claim to want fun/balanced/whatever PVP?

The 2 are mutually exclusive.

[Cherek]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that any 2 guilds should fit that mold. However, 2 straight up melee guilds should be pretty close. Why would they not be? I am somewhat ok with a definition of RPS, but that is also not what we have. I would love to see that matrix, please, someone draw that up. We are closer to R/P/S/Nuclear Warhead. If 2 straight melee guilds are not close in power, and the justification is guild tax it would at least make some sense. Although the easy answer there is up the tax and power on the weaker. Seems fairly simple. I'll ask the most important portion of my questions that was either missed or ignored: How can you ever justify power because of subjective factors such as roleplay, and also claim to want fun/balanced/whatever PVP?

The 2 are mutually exclusive.

Well, we have a matrix and lots of data on which guilds beats which. There has been A LOT of research on that. I am not the one to answer that though, because chances are I'll be wrong since it's not my area of expertise.

Guild tax obviously only really works when balancing PVE, not PVP, and how PVP balancing is done I will leave to someone with more experience in that regard to answer.

And yes I must have missed that question about RP. No, RP is not, and should not be factored in when it comes to power. What makes you think there is an RP-factor when it comes to balancing? The level of RP a guild has is decided by its players, nobody else. If I look at our guilds today I see absolutely no connection between RP and power. If you look at ALL our guilds, can you really say that the more RP-heavy guilds are more powerful?

The guilds most often mentioned as being "OP" these days are primarily Mages and Calians, sometimes BDA. I'd say one of those guilds is RP-heavy, the other two pretty "casual" guilds?

The guilds most often mentioned as being the weakest overall in terms of power are PoTs, Rangers and SS, and at least the first two, maybe even SS depending on which kender you meet, can be considered RP-heavy guilds.

So, no. RP is not a factor, and looking at our guilds today pretty much confirms that is not the case I think.

[Dread]

Guild tax obviously only really works when balancing PVE

I am going to start here, as this is the only portion of what you said that I can respond to at the moment without being needlessly harsh. I am honestly flabbergasted that you don't think completely subjective matters have been used to justify guild power.

Anyway, how is this obvious? Why can you only use it to balance pve and not pvp? I am evidently particularly dense on this subject.

[Dread]

Laggy double post evidently.

[Cherek]

Guild tax obviously only really works when balancing PVE

I am going to start here, as this is the only portion of what you said that I can respond to at the moment without being needlessly harsh. I am honestly flabbergasted that you don't think completely subjective matters have been used to justify guild power.

Anyway, how is this obvious? Why can you only use it to balance pve and not pvp? I am evidently particularly dense on this subject.

I cant speak for every wizard that have ever created a guild Dread, and I can't speak for everyone's decision during 27 years of Genesis history, nobody can. I can speak for now, today, and of course the goal must be to NOT account for RP when deciding on power levels in a guild. Because how would you measure that? It's un-measurable. And lots of guilds go sometimes from RP to less RP, or the other way around, depending on leadership. With a few exceptions the RP-serious-level has changed over time in many guilds. You seem very sure that I am... stupid? Lying? Or what?:) But, if you are so sure, in which _current_ guilds in Genesis today do you think the level of RP has been part of the balance process?

As for guild tax. You pay a portion of the XP you gain to your guild, instead of increasing your stats. If your guild has 50% tax or 20% tax matters when you gain experience, but not when fighting other players. If I provide guild X with a wand that instantly kills a player, I can't just slap on 90% tax and say it's balanced. Guild X can still instantly kill any player, which can't be balanced by tax. If they can only use it on NPCs, then you could balance it with tax. You can kill anything, but you only get 10% of the XP for killing it so... perhaps you still end up gaining about as much XP as a guild with only 10% tax and no crazy wand.

[Dread]

I cant speak for every wizard that have ever created a guild Dread, and I can't speak for everyone's decision during 27 years of Genesis history, nobody can. I can speak for now, today, and of course the goal must be to NOT account for RP when deciding on power levels in a guild. Because how would you measure that? It's un-measurable. And lots of guilds go sometimes from RP to less RP, or the other way around, depending on leadership. With a few exceptions the RP-serious-level has changed over time in many guilds. You seem very sure that I am... stupid? Lying? Or what?:) But, if you are so sure, in which _current_ guilds in Genesis today do you think the level of RP has been part of the balance process?

I don't give a shit about history Cherek, I am not attempting to dredge up some long lost wizards misdeeds. Do I think you are stupid? No. Do I think you are a liar? No, at least I hope not. Oblivious though? Possibly. Humorously enough I just had this conversation with someone else. Don't put words in my mouth. I will tell you exactly what I think.

Perhaps "RP" is hyperbole. However, "completely subjective matters" covers it pretty well. I will attempt to be circumspect here and perhaps I will just send you a PM. Although there is little point.

As for guild tax. You pay a portion of the XP you gain to your guild, instead of increasing your stats. If your guild has 50% tax or 20% tax matters when you gain experience, but not when fighting other players. If I provide guild X with a wand that instantly kills a player, I can't just slap on 90% tax and say it's balanced. Guild X can still instantly kill any player, which can't be balanced by tax. If they can only use it on NPCs, then you could balance it with tax. You can kill anything, but you only get 10% of the XP for killing it so... perhaps you still end up gaining about as much XP as a guild with only 10% tax and no crazy wand.

Now who is using hyperbole? You could do any number of stupid things I suppose. I am not sure of your point though. It has been brought up over and over that power is measured in tax in this game. If you are saying that in every instance that was only referencing PVE power then I will have to profess my ignorance, because that is definitely not how I have read it in the many pages talking about OP guilds and such. Let's assume that is the case. Then what you are saying is some matrix of RPS that exists only in the wizards eyes that they have "tons" of data on is what governs our PVP lives?

Let's approach this from another direction. Why do YOU think there is a great deal of contempt and discontent for the current pvp in this game? I would love to hear your thoughts on the supposed weaknesses and counters to some of the greater PVP guilds. The problem with that is we aren't allowed to discuss guild specific abilities are we? Thus keeping people in the dark about how to defend themselves, and in turn making it even harder to PVP. Of course, that wonderful mystery we hear about could also easily conceal imbalances in powers between guilds. But I am sure that doesn't happen!

[Cherek]

Dread: I am not putting words in your mouth, I genuinely asked if you think I am stupid or lying, because you seem very upset at something, or someone, and because I replied to your questions I seem to be getting the brunt of your anger. I am glad you do not think I am at least. I am simply trying to explain how I see things, and be as transparent as possible about what we do upstairs.

Do we have perfect balance between races and guilds? No. Genesis is a sandbox game, created by probably thousands of volunteers with different ideas and different levels of skills for over 27 years. Yes, there are rough ideas on how things should work, detailed documents dealing with balance, and power limits, tests being made and lots of data. Petros has a very advanced environment where you can make different guilds fight, and there are documents explaining which guilds beat which. In a controlled environment that is, the real PVP world with real players is another thing of course, but it gives a pretty good idea on which guilds counter which, etc.

There is one thing to have all guidelines and documents and actually making it work though. Trying to get a bunch of volunteers to work like a *real" game company where everyone works towards a common, well-defined goal is like going for a walk with 20 hungry dogs all wanting to run in different directions...

Now, why do I think there are lots of complaints about PVP? Well, there are of course a mix of reasons. I think the biggest issue is size differences and player skill in PVP, and the fact that 95% of the players are cannon fodder in guild wars. Even if everyone belonged to the same guild most people with get their butts kicked by a small percentage of much bigger and much more skilled players. Of course, if you also add the best PVP guild, and the best race for your guild, vs someone who has picked a guild that's not as PVP-oriented, and a less than optimal race choice and stat focus, then the different become even greater. I completely agree that PVP is not a very balanced part of Genesis, and as previous AoP I can safely say that it's the number 1 complaint about the game, and something that could be improved.

Are guild differences part of it? Yes, part of it. I think size differences is the biggest obstacle though. Followed by player skills, guild choice and races. But this is NOT based on lots of data or tons of tests, this is my personal feeling based on being a player, and then an AoP listening to player complaints.

[Dread]

Dread: I am not putting words in your mouth, I genuinely asked if you think I am stupid or lying, because you seem very upset at something, or someone, and because I replied to your questions I seem to be getting the brunt of your anger.

Time out. Don't fall into the trap of attributing emotion to text read on a forum. I am not upset at all. I used to argue for a living, and I assure you I do so without any emotional baggage. As far as I can remember, there is only 1 thing in this game that has actually made me angry, and it has nothing to do with you, any other wizard, or anything I have discussed on this forum. I don't know you Cherek. As far as I know we have roamed the realms at the same time but never together. You seem to be a nice person, and I definitely appreciate you taking the time to post replies on the forums. If you read frustration into my words at all, it would only be at the lack of definitive answers. We have had this discussion before, although I won't fault you for not remembering. I don't like wishy-washy, philosophical, meandering answers. I have the belief that what we say, and how we say it is very important. Meandering verbiage in writing/speech = meandering thought = meandering action.

Do we have perfect balance between races and guilds? No. Genesis is a sandbox game, created by probably thousands of volunteers with different ideas and different levels of skills for over 27 years. Yes, there are rough ideas on how things should work, detailed documents dealing with balance, and power limits, tests being made and lots of data. Petros has a very advanced environment where you can make different guilds fight, and there are documents explaining which guilds beat which. In a controlled environment that is, the real PVP world with real players is another thing of course, but it gives a pretty good idea on which guilds counter which, etc.

The problem I have with this is what I stated in my last post. The secrecy, or "Mystery" as it so often gets called. Why is this desirable? I am not doubting that someone, I am pretty sure Gorboth is one of those people, thinks that the mystery is an indelible part of what makes Genesis what it is. I, however, have never understood this. It takes willful ignorance to ignore the communities that have popped up just to dispel this darkness. All of which could have been here, on this forum, sharing and working together to make our sandbox more fun, more balanced.

I have played a huge number of PVP capable MMORPGS. Starting with shooting ridiculously OP lightning bolts in Meridian 59 to the overly cartoonish shit that is coming out today like Crowfall. (My favorites are Shadowbane and Eve if anyone cares.) I have also played a huge number of MUDs, spending most of my time here and on Avalon. This is the only world I have played in where ignorance was truly supposed to be bliss. On one hand we have thousands of games with successful PVP communities where full knowledge of ones opponents was encouraged and lauded and in no way detracted from the fun. On the other we have Genesis. I cannot be the only one that thinks PVP now is a pale shadow of what it used to be. I am struggling to find a single aspect of it that is better than it was 15 years ago. I smile to think at all the times I died as a Vamp, Glad, etc. There was a straight year in the 90's spent in Grissom Hall at Purdue where either I or one of my friends died, or the enemy did every time we logged on. It was glorious. Reading these forums today would lead you to believe that all we have is small bands of op guilds bitterly griefing each other once in a while, and studiously avoiding everything the rest of the time. Is this actually the case? I don't know. What I do know is it doesn't matter, perception > reality.

There is one thing to have all guidelines and documents and actually making it work though. Trying to get a bunch of volunteers to work like a *real" game company where everyone works towards a common, well-defined goal is like going for a walk with 20 hungry dogs all wanting to run in different directions...

I believe "Herding Cats" is the phrase I have heard used. I agree with you, but there is untapped potential there that I think is being ignored. Look at Eve, where a council is elected from the playerbase, and meets with the designers of the game in an effort to make sure that community concerns are looked at and rectified if possible. Why is this not possible here?

"Mystery."

Now, why do I think there are lots of complaints about PVP? Well, there are of course a mix of reasons. I think the biggest issue is size differences and player skill in PVP, and the fact that 95% of the players are cannon fodder in guild wars. Even if everyone belonged to the same guild most people with get their butts kicked by a small percentage of much bigger and much more skilled players. Of course, if you also add the best PVP guild, and the best race for your guild, vs someone who has picked a guild that's not as PVP-oriented, and a less than optimal race choice and stat focus, then the different become even greater. I completely agree that PVP is not a very balanced part of Genesis, and as previous AoP I can safely say that it's the number 1 complaint about the game, and something that could be improved.

Are guild differences part of it? Yes, part of it. I think size differences is the biggest obstacle though. Followed by player skills, guild choice and races. But this is NOT based on lots of data or tons of tests, this is my personal feeling based on being a player, and then an AoP listening to player complaints.

A. I agree that size is an issue. Definitely was more combat when champ was it.
B. Cannon fodder is an issue, I have no idea what to do to solve it. The solution in Avalon of bloodlust and pacifism worked, but there were people who still bitched about being griefed, even when there was a solution.
C. Optimal builds. Do we want all people interested in pvp to gravitate to 3 or 4 guilds with 1 or 2 races? That is where we are heading I think. Your thematic elf archer is really cool, but you will only get your ass handed to you a few times before you stop PVPing, or end up one of the multitude.
D. I am happy you acknowledge that PVP is the number 1 complaint. Can you point me to the improvement that has been made? *** Do not see this as an indictment of wizard time/ability/knowledge/whatever. I am purely asking what we have done that made things better for PVP.

[gorboth]

Dread,

I agree with you that games where mystery is not lauded as important can be very fun indeed. Games definitely do not need mystery to be fun. I disagree very much, though, if you are stating that games where mystery is considered fun and important cannot be fun because of the mystery. I would use D&D as a prime example. The Dunegon Master doesn't sit you down and say, "Okay, here we have an enemy you're about to fight. Before we begin, I'll tell you: The enemy has three main attack types. They will include an ability to flank you, to freeze anyone in your team who is an elf, and the ability to teleport thirty paces away. What do you choose to do?" No, the DM would say, "You see a group of figures approaching through the mist. One of them points at you and the others grin. What do you choose to do?"

I feel like Genesis is more in the second mould, and I will always work to keep it there.

Maybe this will just feel like a philosophical answer, but philosophy is important to me.

G.

[Cherek]

Dread: If you ask me, I think PVP was in many ways better 15 years ago. But it could also be you and me having fond memories of past days, when in fact I am sure we had problems back then too? But I remember it as fun, because it was a big part of the realms, and the feeling was that most people participating found it pretty fun, because they sometimes won, and sometimes lost. Today my feeling is that a very small portion of players win all the time, and the rest seem to lose all the time. Which is something I'd like to change. Nobody wants to go into a fight and feel it's lost before it starts. There is a reason most multiplayer games match you against someone near your level of skill, rank, size, or whatever it is. This is of course harder in a sandbox type of game compared to dedicated player vs player game.

I think a lot of things has improved in Genesis the last 15 years, and I think we'd be surprised how much if we were suddenly thrown into Genesis 2000. I think there are many things that has become better in PVP too. For example we have less "death trap" abilities / places / items, LAG isn't an issue, death is nicer, and I do think that the recoded guilds are better balanced vs each other today. Of course the fact that we still have guilds that are not recoded definitely causes a lot of balance problems between "old" and "new" guilds.

in my opinion the main problem is that any imbalance between guilds is made a lot worse when combined with other imbalances in races and especially size, but also player skill. Back in the days the size difference between most players were much smaller, and we did not have some players with 20+ years game experience vs players with 1 year experience. So if you're more equal to begin with, guild and race imbalances are less noticeable. It's when you add it all together it really becomes an issue, and that's where we are today. We have the biggest players, who are very skilled in PVP combat, using the best race, joining the best guild, and when they fight players who knows little about PVP, are considerably smaller, using an inferior race, in a less than optimal guild we end up with situations where players are killed from fvw in 5-10 seconds. This is not good. How to fix it? Well there are probably as many ideas as there are players in the game. What's your fix?

The mystery discussion is another discussion, and the level of mystery varies greatly depending on which wizard designed the particular area / guild etc. Yes, Genesis has is more mysterious than other games, and we will never use numbers for example, but we have also done a lot of things the last decade to decrease the mystery level, and make Genesis more user friendly. The tutorial teaches players about a lot of that now, stuff that before had to be found out by asking around, or testing. The quest orbs have helped questing a lot. Newer guilds usually give a lot more hints about which spell / ability is affected by what. The magic map shows big parts of the game, and the goal is for the entire game to be mapped. Before the magic map, exploring and making your own maps was the way to learn about the world.

Genesis is a lot more user-friendly and less mysterious now compared to 15 years ago I think, but the level of mystery also varies greatly between guilds and domains. What exactly is it you feel are the main things that are too mysterious, and should be more obvious in Genesis 2017?