Update the Krynn War System: New Win Criteria

[Hunter]

Hi,

A starter thread to discuss changing the win criteria for the Krynn Warfare system.

And GO!

Hunter

[Arman]

So, let’s preface this conversation by saying that the warfare system is built on the bones of VERY OLD legacy code. Carnak modernised it to allow for improved metric measurement before his retirement… but it isn’t documented or incorporated in to the current system. So any changes we make will require quite a bit of commitment to incorporate.

So be aware some of the suggested improvements may be very possible and easy to incorporate. Some may be too hard to implement… but now is as good a time as any to explore how we can make the system better.

[Hunter]

I think the war victory condition should be changed from number of conquests to holding contested territory the longest.

I'd like to address, first, the problems with the current win system, number of conquests.

1 - RDA and BDA are forced to either be adversarial or, when cooperative, forced to not participate each war.
- Since only one army can get the win benefit they either have to fight with each other (which might have been the point?) or switch seasons so one wins and the other doesn't compete and then switch.

2 - Defending a conquered plain isn't effective or worthwhile.
- The only thing that matters is that a plain is conquered or not. Since that is the case it does no good to defend any particular plain because the attackers can just walk away and come back later for the same reward with no benefit for the team who took the time to defend.

3 - It encourages a faction to invite other factions to conquer their own plains so they can reconquer.
- If only two factions are competing for a win during a season each side must encourage a third faction to conquer one of their own plains in order to reconquer it and get a 'score up' on the other competing faction. Otherwise the two factions who are competing just keep tying each other by conquering back and forth and the faction who got there first after armagedon wins or the faction that conquers last before armagedon wins.


If the win condition switched to time a territory is held all three of these issues would be addressed.

1 - RDA and BDA could continue to be adversarial if that was the intent but if they wanted to cooperate then either army could assist in defending the other's plains from attackers to help the other army win that season.

2 - Defending a plain from attackers would directly add to the win condition by extending the time a plain is controlled by the defenders team.

3 - With time defended as the win condition plain flipping isn't an issue at all.

Thanks for reading,
Hunter

[Arman]

I think the war victory condition should be changed from number of conquests to holding contested territory the longest.

I'd like to address, first, the problems with the current win system, number of conquests.

1 - RDA and BDA are forced to either be adversarial or, when cooperative, forced to not participate each war.
- Since only one army can get the win benefit they either have to fight with each other (which might have been the point?) or switch seasons so one wins and the other doesn't compete and then switch.

2 - Defending a conquered plain isn't effective or worthwhile.
- The only thing that matters is that a plain is conquered or not. Since that is the case it does no good to defend any particular plain because the attackers can just walk away and come back later for the same reward with no benefit for the team who took the time to defend.

3 - It encourages a faction to invite other factions to conquer their own plains so they can reconquer.
- If only two factions are competing for a win during a season each side must encourage a third faction to conquer one of their own plains in order to reconquer it and get a 'score up' on the other competing faction. Otherwise the two factions who are competing just keep tying each other by conquering back and forth and the faction who got there first after armagedon wins or the faction that conquers last before armagedon wins.


If the win condition switched to time a territory is held all three of these issues would be addressed.

1 - RDA and BDA could continue to be adversarial if that was the intent but if they wanted to cooperate then either army could assist in defending the other's plains from attackers to help the other army win that season.

2 - Defending a plain from attackers would directly add to the win condition by extending the time a plain is controlled by the defenders team.

3 - With time defended as the win condition plain flipping isn't an issue at all.

Thanks for reading,
Hunter

I agree with all your points. I think time controlled should be a factor.. if not THE factor... that determines win conditions. This wasn't something measured in the legacy warfare code, but i believe Carnak did some work to incorporate it. This work wasn't documented or implemented, so I'd need to do some research in to the code to see what could be used.

Regarding the Dragonarmies, they 100% are meant to be adversarial. They are all competing for the Dragon Queen's favour... her end game isn't just the conquest of Krynn, but the conquest of Krynn by the mightiest on a pile of corpses. She has no time for weaklings, her own followers or otherwise, and sees infighting and internal intrigue as a good way of the strong proving themselves to her and weeding out the weak. Her mantra is "Evil turns upon itself".

For those that haven't read the Dragonlance Chronicles which focuses around the War of the Lance, (spoiler) the Dragonarmies weren't defeated in the end on the battlefield by an army of goodly heroes, they imploded - to the Dragon Queen's delight - fighting for dominance and control of the Crown of Might. One came out victorious, Kitiara. The rest of the Dragon Lords died. While the Dark Queen did not rejoice at once again being blocked from entering the mortal realms, she was pleased.

And that's what I want to foster with the Dragonarmies and the warfare system.

[Arman]

So i had a play with the warfare functions and we are able to measure how long an area has been conquered for...

Estwilde:
Neidar Clan has held the area for 0.17 days.
Blue Dragon Army has held the area for 4.47 days.
Free People has held the area for 2.19 days.

[Hunter]

Hi,

Harlot, BDA General and very active on warplains, doesn't have a forum account but said I could post that they like the timer for win condition idea.

Sincerely,
Hunter

[Arman]

So we can also look at time between conquering for conquerors... so if there is a big gap between Hunter capturing an area from Harlot, that can also be used as an individual metric:

Estwilde:
Blue Dragon Army has held the area for 4.89 days.
Free People has held the area for 2.19 days.
Neidar Clan has held the area for 0.17 days.

Harlot has defended the area for 3.22 days.
Hunter has defended the area for 2.19 days.
Didrik has defended the area for 0.78 days.
Adrian has defended the area for 0.46 days.
Boneweevil has defended the area for 0.43 days.
Eirdon has defended the area for 0.17 days.

[Arman]

Would this sort of thing be a preferred war battle report? (mocked up)


The Blue Dragonarmy, led by the merciless Harlot, had long been a dominant force on the battlefields of Krynn. With their relentless assault, they conquered no fewer than 151 battlefields, spreading fear and devastation across the lands. Their efforts were relentless, and though they held power over vast stretches of terrain, it was not enough to secure ultimate victory. The Blue Dragonarmy controlled the battlefield for 90 days and 8 hours, a notable period of dominance. However, their conquest was marked not just by territorial gains, but by the bloodshed they wrought—7,866 enemies fell before them, with Harlot, their champion, claiming 3,901 of those kills. Yet, despite their impressive numbers, they could not maintain control for long enough to outlast their rivals.

In a striking contrast, the Free People of Krynn, led by the indomitable Hunter, proved that victory was not merely a matter of conquering territory, but of enduring it. They controlled the battlefield for an impressive 120 days and 14 hours, the longest time held by any army. Though they conquered 111 battlefields, it was their ability to maintain control over the land that set them apart. The Free People did not just fight for conquest; they fought for survival, vanquishing 8,768 enemies, with Hunter himself taking the lion's share, having defeated 4,492 of those foes. In the end, their perseverance and strategic mastery won them the war, as they outlasted all others, securing their place as the true victors of the War of the Lance.

The Knights of Solamnia, led by the noble Madmartigan, fought valiantly, conquering 61 battlefields and holding their ground for 72 days and 16 hours. They were stalwart in their defense of the land, and while their 4,710 defeated enemies were a testament to their prowess, their inability to hold on to key battlefields in the long term left them second to the Free People. Deth, their chosen champion, felled 1,606 of the enemy forces, yet the Knights could not quite claim victory this time.

The Red Dragonarmy, led by the cunning Klein, showed remarkable strength in their assaults, conquering 63 battlefields and holding them for 50 days and 5 hours. Their forces were disciplined, and they vanquished 3,845 enemies during their campaigns. However, much like the Blue Dragonarmy, they were unable to maintain their grasp long enough to emerge victorious. Klein, in particular, made his mark with 3,175 enemy kills, but his army's conquest was ultimately overshadowed by the strategic endurance of the Free People.

The Neidar Clan, under the steadfast Eirdon, found themselves battling against overwhelming odds. Despite conquering 40 battlefields and slaying 2,734 enemies, their efforts were insufficient to secure a lasting advantage. The Neidar Clan's stronghold was often breached by more powerful forces, and their total control time was only 35 days and 9 hours. Straag, their champion, accounted for 488 of their slain enemies, but the Neidar's place in the annals of the war will be remembered more for their resilience than their success.

Meanwhile, the Black Dragonarmy, led by the ruthless Dravian, fought a losing battle. They managed to conquer 4 battlefields, but their control was short-lived, lasting only 10 days and 3 hours. They vanquished 188 enemies, with Dravian claiming 52 kills. Their brief participation in the war left little lasting impact, but their bloodlust was felt on the few battlefields they controlled.

The White Dragonarmy, led by the brutal Azaezel, found their strength stretched thin. They conquered only 1 battlefield, holding it for 2 days and 12 hours. Despite Azaezel's best efforts, with 77 enemies slain at his hand, their contribution to the war was minimal, their forces scattered and ineffective.

Lastly, the Green Dragonarmy, commanded by the ruthless Caane, made a fleeting appearance in the war. They conquered 1 battlefield and held it for just 1 day and 7 hours, managing to slay 89 enemies, all at the hands of their commander. Though their efforts were few, Caane's sheer brutality on the battlefield was enough to leave a mark, but it was not enough to alter the course of the war.

[Euphoria]

That looks cool. How does it know who defended an area? I guess it goes to who did the conquer ? Seems like a better system.

[Hunter]

So we can also look at time between conquering for conquerors... so if there is a big gap between Hunter capturing an area from Harlot, that can also be used as an individual metric:

Estwilde:
Blue Dragon Army has held the area for 4.89 days.
Free People has held the area for 2.19 days.
Neidar Clan has held the area for 0.17 days.

Harlot has defended the area for 3.22 days.
Hunter has defended the area for 2.19 days.
Didrik has defended the area for 0.78 days.
Adrian has defended the area for 0.46 days.
Boneweevil has defended the area for 0.43 days.
Eirdon has defended the area for 0.17 days.

I love this! I think that the faction that holds territory the longest should be victorious and, much like the conquerer title, the one who defended the longest should be rewarded with a title.
The descriptions from above are FANTASTIC!!!!!! What a joy to read.
It is all so very impressive

Hunter